Mr Average
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Post by Mr Average on Feb 10, 2019 15:36:19 GMT
Is all strength the same?
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Post by mr potatohead on Feb 10, 2019 17:14:51 GMT
IMO, Strength is strength, but not all training is functional to obtain the strength, or how to apply (technique) the strength one already has, needed for sports-specific efforts.
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Post by fredhutch on Feb 10, 2019 17:39:10 GMT
Of course the perennial question is "functional for what?" Somebody that wants merely to be healthy and look good is one thing, a guy who busts a hump all day doing manual labor is another, somebody who plays a sport still different, and the fighter/soldier/fireman/police officer has the toughest readiness challenge of all since these last face the most unpredictability and need the widest range of abilities. Ernest Emerson in his book "Chain Reaction Training", which is aimed primarily at that last group, says "can you run a half mile to a downed helicopter, pull one of your buddies out of the wreck, put him on your back and run back with him?" That is way too extreme for sports and such but for combat it is essential. And personally my interest is combat first and foremost...and my own tag line about that is, "when you're rolling around in a muddy ditch with a guy trying to kill you, we'll see how good your training is"....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 20:05:28 GMT
2 words...Snow Shoveling.
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Post by mr potatohead on Feb 10, 2019 21:16:06 GMT
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Mr Average
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Post by Mr Average on Feb 10, 2019 21:51:30 GMT
Of course the perennial question is "functional for what?" Somebody that wants merely to be healthy and look good is one thing, a guy who busts a hump all day doing manual labor is another, somebody who plays a sport still different, and the fighter/soldier/fireman/police officer has the toughest readiness challenge of all since these last face the most unpredictability and need the widest range of abilities. Ernest Emerson in his book "Chain Reaction Training", which is aimed primarily at that last group, says "can you run a half mile to a downed helicopter, pull one of your buddies out of the wreck, put him on your back and run back with him?" That is way too extreme for sports and such but for combat it is essential. And personally my interest is combat first and foremost...and my own tag line about that is, "when you're rolling around in a muddy ditch with a guy trying to kill you, we'll see how good your training is"....
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Post by billfish on Feb 10, 2019 21:53:01 GMT
and the fighter/soldier/fireman/police officer has the toughest readiness challenge of all since these last face the most unpredictability and need the widest range of abilities. Good points Fred As a Fireman, I eventually altered my workouts to closer reflect what was job related instead of the standard weight workout
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Post by fredhutch on Feb 12, 2019 17:32:41 GMT
I read somewhere years ago that many police officers survived a lethal encounter with a criminal, only to have a heart attack a few minutes later. So I would offer that anybody in an action profession should train to have a bombproof heart. I have long believed that heart/lung conditioning and skeletal muscle training should be done simultaneously in the same workout, and that's how I've trained for years. There are several ways to do this--P.H.A. training, Emerson's "Chain Reaction Training", Bud Jeffries "Twisted Conditioning", and HeavyHands; the "Blitz" workout, which you can read about on the Professional Soldiers Forum, is another strength and conditioning combined method that I sometimes use, it's the only strength workout that ever gave me side stitches. (Google "Professional Soldiers Forum Blitz Only Thread" and it should come right up) The Chi Kung posture "Embracing The Tree" is also said to strengthen the heart.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Feb 12, 2019 18:35:26 GMT
Fred that's how I prefer to train. That's why I like kettlebells because they tend to work well with this kind of training. I was reading that Blitz thread for awhile, interesting. I didn't get to the end. But from what I read,it's 6-8 exercises done for 3 circuits? Each exercise is done for 1 minute? You can use stuff like Bowflex and free weights? Is there somewhere one can see the program? Thanks. Also when You do Your Heavy Hands, are You doing the walking version? How long and how often?
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Post by fredhutch on Feb 13, 2019 18:10:41 GMT
Michael, I think you've got the idea of the Blitz program: 6-8 exercises, each performed for one minute and then you rest for a minute, and you work up to three times through the circuit. What makes Blitz different from other methods is the emphasis on speed of reps, as I recall you were supposed to use a resistance that you could do at least 60 reps with in a minute. Needless to say you can't really do full range reps that way, they have to be shorter than full range to allow such fast turnarounds. Elastic resistance is probably best but he says you can use weights and I have, and still do. I incorporate this into my other workouts nowadays....at one point a few years ago I did a pure Blitz workout just as he says to do, I found it to be one of the hardest workouts I've ever done. Often, using Bodylastics resistance bands, I was getting over a hundred reps in a minute on most exercises.
Jon Bruney, in his "Neuro Mass" sets, sometimes does a Blitz-like exercise for the second part of the tri-set. For example, if he's working the shoulders he will, after the grind lift, flap his arms up and down at high speed, really fast lateral raises using just his arms. He doesn't use this type of movement all the time, though.
Unfortunately the fellow known as "Blitz" is now deceased and as far as I've been able to tell, nobody has taken over for him. He gave away his info for free, there was a PDF of the program but it covered pretty much what I've said and what you've seen; it's really not complicated. He was a retired Special Forces guy and was trying to get the active duty units to adopt this program; I don't think it ever became official but there are probably some guys doing it still. I may join that forum at some time and bump that thread and see if anybody is still doing it.
With HeavyHands, I always did the in-place calishenics, including walking in place. In the early 80's I was a real HeavyHands fanatic and would do an hour or so every day; that was the only exercise I did at the time. Sometimes I wish I had just stuck with that instead of getting diverted into heavy barbell training and so on. Nowadays I only do a minute or two of some of my old favorites in between strength exercises, again, combining the endurance and strength in the same session.
By the way, I forgot to mention Primal Punch's "Zombie Fighter Jango" workouts in the above list, it too is strength and endurance combined; and on at least one video Cedric was doing strength moves (handstand pushups and the like) with zombie fighter jango stuff in between. Apologies to Cedric for not mentioning this before.
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Post by DrunkenMonkey on Feb 13, 2019 19:15:19 GMT
Is all strength the same? I'm not sure what the point is. Wrestling is a skill. Rolling on your shoulders and picking a person off the floor is a skill. They are both skills where strength helps, but where strength is not the primary factor. Surely both a bodybuilder and a gymnast with no wrestling training will be better wrestlers than an overweight schlub with no wrestling training, though.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Feb 13, 2019 19:46:20 GMT
Fred, the Blitz program would probably work great with Bruce's cables. Thanks, may try this in the future. I really like the Chain Reaction program.
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Mr Average
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Post by Mr Average on Feb 13, 2019 19:59:25 GMT
Is all strength the same? I'm not sure what the point is. Wrestling is a skill. Rolling on your shoulders and picking a person off the floor is a skill. They are both skills where strength helps, but where strength is not the primary factor. Surely both a bodybuilder and a gymnast with no wrestling training will be better wrestlers than an overweight schlub with no wrestling training, though. It is about Functional Strength, there are many examples of strength that have nothing to do with, bench press, squat and deadlift. If you feel those are the only forms of Functional Strength there is then fine.
Maybe you will be happier with this one?
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Post by DrunkenMonkey on Feb 14, 2019 16:51:02 GMT
I'm not sure what the point is. Wrestling is a skill. Rolling on your shoulders and picking a person off the floor is a skill. They are both skills where strength helps, but where strength is not the primary factor. Surely both a bodybuilder and a gymnast with no wrestling training will be better wrestlers than an overweight schlub with no wrestling training, though. It is about Functional Strength, there are many examples of strength that have nothing to do with, bench press, squat and deadlift. If you feel those are the only forms of Functional Strength there is then fine.
Maybe you will be happier with this one?
I generally agree. But getting stronger in the bench press, squat and deadlift is "functional." This idea that there's "functional" strength and non-functional strength is silliness that snake-oil salesmen used to sell whatever routine they were trying to sell. No, having a big deadlift won't make you a world-class wrestler. But wrestling is a skill. The strength one accrues from the deadlift does have applications to the skill of wrestling, though. Sure benching twice your bodyweight won't make you a better gymnast, but gymnastics is a skill. But wrestling regularly, squatting regularly and practicing gymnastics regularly will all make you better at moving couches around your house, carrying bags of groceries and pushing your stalled car in the snow.
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Post by Hector on Feb 14, 2019 19:04:32 GMT
Problem with this discussion is folks mixing up strength, strength-endurance and so on, without regards to the fact that they are different attributes.
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