|
Post by mozietoes on Oct 22, 2018 14:44:36 GMT
Anyone else got one of these?
They won't operate on me until a) it starts locking and b) I have difficulty walking!
I've been struggling to find a lower body exercise that doesn't aggravate it
I've tried assisted squats (using the hook/strap - Dr Schwartz style), split squats (bodyweight only), stair climbing, wall sits, all sorts of glute exercises.
3 physio therapists, 1 orthopod, 1 podiatrist, 1 personal trainer.
Recently I discovered kettlebell swings via my new PT. Absolutely love em! Thought I'd found my favourite pain free exercise but no, few weeks in, knee says "ha! Fooled you".
I must admit I haven't tried stationary bike work yet. That's next on my list. Not the greatest quads builder I know but better than nothing I guess?
As an aside, the orthapaedic surgeon started talking to me about the difference between muscle tone and muscle strength. I know most people say that you can't "tone" muscles.
He said tone is developed by high reps maybe 100 a day and that toning the muscles gives you resting strength. So for example when you are standing still not doing anything the muscles are still taut and they and the bones share that stress, whereas if you don’t have muscle tone the emphasis is on the joints.
Strength is built up via lower reps and this is useful when you actually make movements.
|
|
Michael
Caneguru
He cuts down trees. He wears high heels, suspendies, and a bra?!
Winner of Twatformetrics Spartan Challenge
Posts: 5,288
|
Post by Michael on Oct 22, 2018 16:42:01 GMT
Hi Mozietoes, I would first say listen and do whatever Your doctors say. They know best. I don't know to much about your injury but I had some knee challenges myself in the past.
I'll give you some exercises I used but again I'm no doctor. I think the bike thing you mentioned would be a good thing. I believe Bruce recently had some good results with his knees from using a recumbent bike.
I've had some good results from self resistance leg extensions and leg curls. For the leg extensions sit in a chair and put one foot on top of the other. You provide the resistance you need with the top leg while doing leg extensions. The same for leg curls. You just lie down on the floor face first. You could also do these KSHD style.
You could do half squats with tension. Or if You have cables you could do the half squats like that. Here's one that could be turned into a light cardio workout. If you have basement steps do step ups while holding the railing. Do your reps on one side than the other.
One more thing. I think you have Bruce's Isometric belt. Tie the belt around Your waist and put Your feet through the loops. Adjust it to a comfortable range of the squat, maybe a half squat. Just do isometrics with whatever hold times you prefer. I also had great results rehab wise with do isometric pulses, what I called them. You just put pressure into the belt for reps. I have done 10-50 reps.
|
|
|
Post by stormshadow on Oct 22, 2018 17:29:45 GMT
|
|
|
Post by mozietoes on Oct 23, 2018 10:01:39 GMT
Thanks for the replies and the exercises. Those links are really useful as well. :-)
Unfortunately, I don't trust the particular orthopaedic surgeon I saw. His letter back to my GP showed that he completely misunderstood the situation. I've been recommended another surgeon so will arrange to go and see him.
Thanks again.
|
|
TexasRanger
Caneguru
A little here, a little there...
Posts: 2,223
|
Post by TexasRanger on Oct 23, 2018 21:52:08 GMT
I've had four knee surgeries and if you can avoid surgery, I'd recommend it. But, obviously the knee won't cure itself.
Just my humble opinion based on what my MDs have recommended:
1. Walking is the very best, safest form of "aerobic" exercise that is natural for the human body. While I used an exercise bike after the surgeries, two of the surgeons wanted me on my feet as soon as possible; after the fourth, I started out in a pool before getting back on the street. 2. Repetitive exercise -- lots and lots of reps -- are not good for your knees (or joints), period. It is wear and tear. Brief, intense strength training is your best bet to strengthen the quads, but, you must also work the hamstrings. The tighter they are, the more imbalance. 3. Wall squats have been my go-to for years, leg extensions using "Super Slow" techniques over a partial ROM -- not fully extended, not fully "stretched" -- are my favorite when I can get in a gym. Both have allowed me to build a certain amount of strength without exposing the knee to wear and tear.
|
|
|
Post by mr potatohead on Oct 23, 2018 22:40:20 GMT
TR's post sounds good to me. I haven't had this issue, but, if I did, I would do wall sits or a partial BW squat & hold. From what I've read, holds favor connective tissue strengthening. Could also add light to moderate weight progression in a carry position or vest. I'd do them with the same frequency as I've done the doorway OHP isometric for shoulder rehab, which is up to several times per day. Stop before it becomes uncomfortable, ignoring elapsed time. Avoid many reps - I'm talking about doing one hold (no rep) per session, up to several sessions per day.
|
|
Michael
Caneguru
He cuts down trees. He wears high heels, suspendies, and a bra?!
Winner of Twatformetrics Spartan Challenge
Posts: 5,288
|
Post by Michael on Oct 24, 2018 1:24:47 GMT
Wall squat or sit holds kill my knees.
|
|
|
Post by mr potatohead on Oct 24, 2018 7:12:22 GMT
Wall squat or sit holds kill my knees. I'd say that's a good reason to do them. Just stop before the tension becomes uncomfortable - well before it kills your knees. Ignore elapsed time. If you can only go for a few seconds per session, that's enough to start progressing. It will become easier and hold time will slowly increase with consistency. Do them briefly and frequently, avoiding anything that feels like even the slightest ache or pain. The "fitness gurus" who recommend specific hold times (or reps, sets and routines) aren't living in your body, can't feel what you're feeling and set you up for disappointment when you don't meet their prescribed routine goals. Don't allow others to tell you how long you should hold a wall sit or partial squat (or any other Time Under Tension). Your body knows best and will let you know when the TUT is up, before it becomes uncomfortable. It's your body. Trust what you feel.
|
|
Michael
Caneguru
He cuts down trees. He wears high heels, suspendies, and a bra?!
Winner of Twatformetrics Spartan Challenge
Posts: 5,288
|
Post by Michael on Oct 24, 2018 11:00:16 GMT
Ok Mikey, good advice. Makes sense but my knees are feeling great. Don't know if I want to mess with it. Because it sucks when You're on Your feet all day and Your knees are hurting.
|
|
|
Post by mozietoes on Oct 24, 2018 11:25:22 GMT
Thanks all. Some really great advice here. I'll take all this to the PT on friday and also the Orthopod and see what they say.
One of my challenges is that I get "payback pain" rather than pain at the time of exercising, which is a real bugger. Doing an exercise feels great, then anywhere from a few hours to a few days later the pain starts. Makes it hard to work out what is the aggravator sometimes :-)
I hate knees. Useful things though I guess :-)
|
|
TexasRanger
Caneguru
A little here, a little there...
Posts: 2,223
|
Post by TexasRanger on Oct 24, 2018 13:17:43 GMT
Ok Mikey, good advice. Makes sense but my knees are feeling great. Don't know if I want to mess with it. Because it sucks when You're on Your feet all day and Your knees are hurting. Michael, If it hurts, don't do it...makes perfect sense. Some options I might suggest, *if* you haven't tried them already and apologies if you've already given them a shot. 1. Shift your feet slightly forward -- a few inches past your knees. You'll need to have on shoes or something that would prevent your feet from sliding. Now, try pressing back from your heels using your quads and glutes. This trick has helped me with my knees. 2. If that change doesn't work, or, as another option, keeping your quads contracted AND your glutes -- a lot of people may forget to do this -- raise up slightly on your toes. 3. Don't go all the way to parallel with your upper legs. For some people, that is where the trouble starts. 4. Hold a weight in front of your body. Don't know why, but, for me this shifts some of the stress and I don't feel it in my knees. The other option? Good old quad contractions. After each surgery and rehab after an injury, the PTs always started me off with quad contractions and hamstring flexibility work. You won't look like Tom Platz, but, you'll be strengthening your quads... i.redd.it/azic9vu6e5lz.jpgAlso, with your running? If you're using shoes that have a thicker heel and running heel-toe, that might also be an issue. (When I run, I use shoes with a smaller heel.) There's a school of thought that running with heel-toe form may be detrimental to knee health due to the impact. Methods such as "Pose Running", "Chi Running" and others suggest instead of heel-toe, you instead "pull" with your lower leg with your hamstring and then let the leg "drop". The important things with this method: - You land mid-foot/near the ball of your foot. - Your foot should never go in front of the plane of your body. The most important thing if you try this is go slowly -- short distances so you learn the form and pay attention to your Achilles Tendons as this takes some getting used to. It may never work for some people as it may irritate their ATs, so, this approach isn't necessarily a fix-all:
|
|
|
Post by mr potatohead on Oct 24, 2018 14:28:41 GMT
Thanks all. Some really great advice here. I'll take all this to the PT on friday and also the Orthopod and see what they say. One of my challenges is that I get "payback pain" rather than pain at the time of exercising, which is a real bugger. Doing an exercise feels great, then anywhere from a few hours to a few days later the pain starts. Makes it hard to work out what is the aggravator sometimes :-) I hate knees. Useful things though I guess :-) The following is my opinion. If you want to argue about it, talk to the hand. That's the body feedback that tells me that I held tension for too long &/or that the day's total volume (after adding up the brief exercise snacks) was too much. Notice; how you feel at the time of exercise that results in the post-exercise pain and back off from that feeling. Too high of volume/effort, aggravates, and it extends recovery time. Too often, people think they need to do "10 minutes @ 80% of 1RM" or "5 x 5's @ 60% of 1RM @ 4-1-4 cadence" or some BS like that. They don't. That's someone else's made-up idea/program. They just need to hold TUT until their body has done "enough". Could be 2 seconds, could be 26:42 minutes. If they'd ignore hitting a certain time mark and pay attention to the feeling in their body @ the time (or the day, if done various times during a day) of exercise, they'd enjoy the exercise while they do it and after they're done. The effort volume can change from day to day, some days more, some days less, depending on how it feels at the time of effort, but the general direction and result is improvement over time. And, don't let anyone tell you that an exercise should take a certain amount of time. That's BS. Your body will let you know when you're done ..... but, perhaps not until hours later or until the next day. When I started the strength building exercise habit in 2012, I knew very little and just accepted all of the gym brother bullshit of prescribed exercise schedules, modes, forms and routines. I accepted that I had to do all angles, positions, lifts, reps, sets and pell-mell-to-hell-progressive-resistance-for-all-body-parts on a time schedule. I also began to injure myself and suffer the resulting recovery time which could be weeks, months or even up to a year and a half. Now I know that it's just BS that people make up to have something to write for an article in a muscle mag or a book or to become a famous youtube guru. Fuck that! Exercise needs to feel good while you do it and when you're done. If you're in pain just hours or a day or two afterward, you're doing too much, IMO.
|
|
|
Post by mozietoes on Oct 24, 2018 14:55:13 GMT
Thanks all. Some really great advice here. I'll take all this to the PT on friday and also the Orthopod and see what they say. One of my challenges is that I get "payback pain" rather than pain at the time of exercising, which is a real bugger. Doing an exercise feels great, then anywhere from a few hours to a few days later the pain starts. Makes it hard to work out what is the aggravator sometimes :-) I hate knees. Useful things though I guess :-) The following is my opinion. If you want to argue about it, talk to the hand. That's the body feedback that tells me that I held tension for too long &/or that the day's total volume (after adding up the brief exercise snacks) was too much. Notice; how you feel at the time of exercise that results in the post-exercise pain and back off from that feeling. Too high of volume/effort, aggravates, and it extends recovery time. Too often, people think they need to do "10 minutes @ 80% of 1RM" or "5 x 5's @ 60% of 1RM @ 4-1-4 cadence" or some BS like that. They don't. That's someone else's made-up idea/program. They just need to hold TUT until their body has done "enough". Could be 2 seconds, could be 26:42 minutes. If they'd ignore hitting a certain time mark and pay attention to the feeling in their body @ the time (or the day, if done various times during a day) of exercise, they'd enjoy the exercise while they do it and after they're done. The effort volume can change from day to day, some days more, some days less, depending on how it feels at the time of effort, but the general direction and result is improvement over time. And, don't let anyone tell you that an exercise should take a certain amount of time. That's BS. Your body will let you know when you're done ..... but, perhaps not until hours later or until the next day. When I started the strength building exercise habit in 2012, I knew very little and just accepted all of the gym brother bullshit of prescribed exercise schedules, modes, forms and routines. I accepted that I had to do all angles, positions, lifts, reps, sets and pell-mell-to-hell-progressive-resistance-for-all-body-parts on a time schedule. I also began to injure myself and suffer the resulting recovery time which could be weeks, months or even up to a year and a half. Now I know that it's just BS that people make up to have something to write for an article in a muscle mag or a book or to become a famous youtube guru. Fuck that! Exercise needs to feel good while you do it and when you're done. If you're in pain just hours or a day or two afterward, you're doing too much, IMO. Mr.P. Thanks for your thoughts. I definitely won't argue on this one. You are absolutely right! The challenge for me is with this: " Notice; how you feel at the time of exercise that results in the post-exercise pain and back off from that feeling."
At the time of doing an exercise, I don't feel anything negative at all. With the kettlebell swings for example, they feel absolutely great whilst doing them. I don't feel super tired or achey. I deliberately don't push too hard these days as I did that a lot a few years ago and suffered for it. Thus it's very hard (for me) to define when to back off as there's no markers. (By the way I'm aware that swings aren't specifically a lower body exercise but I'm thinking that the hip / leg action maybe an issue. I'm seeing the PT on friday and will get her to check my form and in particular how my knee is tracking.) Again, not arguing. Just finding it hard to define where to back off to :-) It's also difficult knowing which particular exercise is causing the pain. The only thing I can think of is to stop all lower body related stuff till things are better and then introduce exercises one at a time for maybe 2 weeks and see what happens. Just such an arse that once the pain starts, it usually takes a week or two of rest to subside. It will be a slow process
|
|
TexasRanger
Caneguru
A little here, a little there...
Posts: 2,223
|
Post by TexasRanger on Oct 24, 2018 15:26:25 GMT
Mr.P. Thanks for your thoughts. I definitely won't argue on this one. You are absolutely right! The challenge for me is with this: " Notice; how you feel at the time of exercise that results in the post-exercise pain and back off from that feeling."
At the time of doing an exercise, I don't feel anything negative at all. With the kettlebell swings for example, they feel absolutely great whilst doing them. I don't feel super tired or achey. I deliberately don't push too hard these days as I did that a lot a few years ago and suffered for it. Thus it's very hard (for me) to define when to back off as there's no markers. (By the way I'm aware that swings aren't specifically a lower body exercise but I'm thinking that the hip / leg action maybe an issue. I'm seeing the PT on friday and will get her to check my form and in particular how my knee is tracking.) Again, not arguing. Just finding it hard to define where to back off to :-) It's also difficult knowing which particular exercise is causing the pain. The only thing I can think of is to stop all lower body related stuff till things are better and then introduce exercises one at a time for maybe 2 weeks and see what happens. Just such an arse that once the pain starts, it usually takes a week or two of rest to subside. It will be a slow process KBs are a whole body exercise, so, you're definitely including your knees during swings, for example. One of the "go to" KB gurus for a while -- Mark Reifkind -- mentioned in a newsletter (?) that KBs create forces that are 4 - 8x the weight of the KB when the swing is at the point of the arc when it is parallel to the ground. Non-linear physics definitely isn't my thing, but, based on force generated by the KB it will affect your shoulders, elbows, lower back and knees. No getting around any of that -- basic physics and transfer of force, etc. I keep my legs braced along with my core to protect my lower back, knees, etc., from the force of the swing. I actually have better luck with KB clean & press or snatches. As Clarence Bass wrote years ago, when he was having lower back issues from KBs, once he switched to cleans along with KB snatches the pain subsided. No doubt the transfer of forces were causing the lower back issues, despite Bass having an amazingly strong core. I like cleans and snatches as well for the same reason. BTW, if I have done something to irritate/bother my knee, one other option I'll utilize is the race walking technique. You'd be surprised how protective of the knee this approach is...while I am sure my form is lacking, using more hip / glute action to "pull" my leg through while contracting the quad has helped me. I have suggested it to others with knee issues and they noted it helped as well.
|
|
|
Post by mr potatohead on Oct 24, 2018 15:37:41 GMT
Again, not arguing. Just finding it hard to define where to back off to :-) It's also difficult knowing which particular exercise is causing the pain. Actually, the "argue" statement was a joke reference to Arnie. :-) Tee-hee! Yes, that is a challenge. One suggestion I have is to do the same or maybe a little less and stretch out the same (or less) volume in little bites throughout the day. I've never had to completely stop doing any exercise that serves me, but I have had times where I had to; 1. lay off for a while to recover/heal and then ease back into it. 2. find a work-around until I can do the exercise again. 3. Continue doing it, but at a lower volume or intensity. Another possibility is diet. The deadly nightshade family of plants - tomato, potato, eggplant and green pepper - can cause arthritic type pain in major joints for some people - I've read 40% of people affected and I'm one of those. Potatoes don't seem to bother me, but if I eat too many tomatoes, I feel the pain. The toxic gluten grains - barley, rye, oats, wheat and spelt - may also be an issue. If eating any processed foods, sauces, etc, wheat is liberally added by the manufacturer as is refined sugar. An elimination diet might provide an answer. I like to approach issues like this in a holistic manner. Did I change what I'm habitually eating? Etc. Being my own health detective has been helpful to me. Life happens and sometimes I don't pay attention. I start to feel bad until I review the environment I've subjected my body to recently. Then I go back to what I know works and things are OK again.
|
|