TexasRanger
Caneguru
A little here, a little there...
Posts: 2,223
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Post by TexasRanger on Aug 16, 2018 23:07:12 GMT
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Post by Bruce Tackett on Aug 17, 2018 5:19:05 GMT
Lift weights. You've got eccentric built in. Don't even have to think about it, just do it.
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keith
Caneguru
Posts: 208
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Post by keith on Aug 17, 2018 10:12:18 GMT
Don't go saying that to loud.
Other people may hear and it may cause conflict.
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Post by Joey Didanoto on Aug 17, 2018 11:00:20 GMT
Isometrics seem to work for Silverlook.
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Silverlooks
Caneguru
Training with Overcoming Isometrics exclusively since Jan 2017 - Using Sierra Hook + Iso-Strap
Posts: 220
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Post by Silverlooks on Aug 17, 2018 11:50:42 GMT
Microtrauma in muscle fibers occurs in both concentric and eccentric phases, it is caused by high levels of tension in the muscles, sustaining tension for long duration isometric holds will compensate for the lack of an eccentric phase in terms microtrauma i.e. if you only perform pure isometrics with no eccentric contraction at the end you MAY or NOT have insignificantly less microtrauma.
There are differences in how the muscle functions during concentric, isometric, and eccentric contractions, but it’s all about force production. If your muscles’ ability to produce force is being challenged, they will be stimulated to grow bigger and stronger regardless of which of these you do or don’t do.
A lot of people have a hard time with this because they like to see and feel weight going up and down and associate strength with the ability to move things, but isometrics are incredibly effective when done correctly.
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Silverlooks
Caneguru
Training with Overcoming Isometrics exclusively since Jan 2017 - Using Sierra Hook + Iso-Strap
Posts: 220
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Post by Silverlooks on Aug 17, 2018 12:06:12 GMT
A very significant benefit of isometric action training is that it produces a greater level of activation than any other contraction regimen. The term activation is referring to the recruitment of the muscle motor units.
During 2001 a study on “Activation of Human Quadriceps Femoris During Isometric, Concentric, and Eccentric Contractions” by Nicholas Babault et al. found that during maximal eccentric and concentric contractions activation levels were 88.3% and 89.7%, respectively, yet they were significantly lower (P<0.05) than the activation levels during maximal isometric contraction which were 95.2%. This study’s findings have been well documented and supported through the large body of literature that has found maximal isometric action to recruit nearly all the motor units (Allen, 1995; Allen, 1998; Belanger, 1981; De Serres and Enoka 1998; Merton, 1954; & Newham, 1991). This demonstrated that through the use of isometric training we are capable of engaging a greater percentage of our muscle fibres. Therefore, in theory we should be able to have improvement in our capability of muscle activation through development of our neural system. If this proves to be true we may find a significant increase in our strength based on our capability of using our muscle closer to its full potential.
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Silverlooks
Caneguru
Training with Overcoming Isometrics exclusively since Jan 2017 - Using Sierra Hook + Iso-Strap
Posts: 220
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Post by Silverlooks on Aug 17, 2018 12:13:21 GMT
Unfortunately most studies you can find comparing concentric vs eccentric vs isometric contractions apply short duration isometrics, and not the breakthrough Timed Static Contraction protocol.
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Post by doomfarer1 on Aug 17, 2018 12:18:48 GMT
To generate a high amount of force/intensity of contraction - this takes, in my experience, a lot of practice. It’s why many people miss the Isometric “boat”. They just don’t feel like they’re getting a lot done, and they can’t measure the work. Silver is likely right - longer hold times recruiting more fibers or (as I typically train) a quick series of intense holds MAY (as the thread title also implies) overcome any eccentric issues.
Anyway, anything “lost” by not having the eccentric can be made up with self resistance or Cals, perhaps even super slow. No modality need exist in a vacuum.
As an aside, as I grow in proficiency with ISOs I’ve noticed the carry over to some to self-resisted exercises. I can make them more intense than I remember being able to before.
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TexasRanger
Caneguru
A little here, a little there...
Posts: 2,223
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Post by TexasRanger on Aug 17, 2018 12:31:34 GMT
Hi Silverlooks,
There is greater microtrauma/damage that takes places with eccentrics vs. isometrics for several reasons based on the things that I'd read last night:
1. You can use up to 50% more weight with the negative portion of the lift vs. positive therefore more damage vs. positive. 2. You can also perform a negative for, at a minimum, 2x positive. Much greater TUL. 3. Eccentric movements create microtrauma throughout a full ROM. I know this will be questioned/debated, but, the papers that I'd read last night discussed the importance of this in hypertrophy.
Also, Silverlooks, can I ask: did you lift weights prior to your current program? So, are the isometrics actually helping you maintain/retain the gains you earned lifting?
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Silverlooks
Caneguru
Training with Overcoming Isometrics exclusively since Jan 2017 - Using Sierra Hook + Iso-Strap
Posts: 220
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Post by Silverlooks on Aug 17, 2018 12:47:38 GMT
Hi Silverlooks, There is greater microtrauma/damage that takes places with eccentrics vs. isometrics for several reasons based on the things that I'd read last night: 1. You can use up to 50% more weight with the negative portion of the lift vs. positive therefore more damage vs. positive. 2. You can also perform a negative for, at a minimum, 2x positive. Much greater TUL. 3. Eccentric movements create microtrauma throughout a full ROM. I know this will be questioned/debated, but, the papers that I'd read last night discussed the importance of this in hypertrophy. Also, Silverlooks, can I ask: did you lift weights prior to your current program? So, are the isometrics actually helping you maintain/retain the gains you earned lifting? By the time I had returned to training (with isometrics) after stopping due to injury for a long period, all gains had diminished. I do not believe in "muscle memory". Those seeking to retain gains are just like fresh starters in terms of being far from the Plateau that is mostly the genetic limitation, although one can consider the "neurological adaptation" as a significant factor giving advantage to the former over the latter (given it survived the sedentary period). From lifting I learned how a decent workout 'felt' (which I later used as a basis for comparison) and proper exercise forms and postures. That's the entire carryover between these two training periods/methods I performed. I honestly don't know what would the results/variation-of be if someone starts with isometrics exclusively right from the beginning of his physical training. Strength/Hypertrophy is still a universe to discover, it has numerous variables and contributing factors.
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Post by billfish on Aug 17, 2018 13:08:11 GMT
Uh oh.....hold the presses ! This new development may bring another delay to the long awaited release of LS from youknowwhatics Now the book will have to be rewritten as youknowwho makes up stories of his numerous phone calls with some mysterious doctor or other expert Standby for a post on how he's been doing this for decades now
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TexasRanger
Caneguru
A little here, a little there...
Posts: 2,223
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Post by TexasRanger on Aug 17, 2018 13:08:30 GMT
Hi Silverlooks, There is greater microtrauma/damage that takes places with eccentrics vs. isometrics for several reasons based on the things that I'd read last night: 1. You can use up to 50% more weight with the negative portion of the lift vs. positive therefore more damage vs. positive. 2. You can also perform a negative for, at a minimum, 2x positive. Much greater TUL. 3. Eccentric movements create microtrauma throughout a full ROM. I know this will be questioned/debated, but, the papers that I'd read last night discussed the importance of this in hypertrophy. Also, Silverlooks, can I ask: did you lift weights prior to your current program? So, are the isometrics actually helping you maintain/retain the gains you earned lifting? By the time I had returned to training (with isometrics) after stopping due to injury for a long period, all gains had diminished. I do not believe in "muscle memory". Those seeking to retain gains are just like fresh starters in terms of being far from the Plateau that is mostly the genetic limitation, although one can consider the "neurological adaptation" as a significant factor giving advantage to the former over the latter (given it survived the sedentary period). From lifting I learned how a decent workout 'felt' (which I later used as a basis for comparison) and proper exercise forms and postures. That's the entire carryover between these two training periods/methods I performed. I honestly don't know what would the results/variation-of be if someone starts with isometrics exclusively right from the beginning of his physical training. Strength/Hypertrophy is still a universe to discover, it has numerous variables and contributing factors. There appears to be validity to the muscle memory claim. One can lay off training for days, months and return to working out and within a short period of time rapidly regain most of their previous strength and eventually size gains. The skills -- gross and fine -- are also quickly regained. (Think about riding a bike...that too, is a complex skill. If you haven't been on a bicycle for a long period of time, you quickly 'relearn' the skills to ride the bike.) I took time off due to a wrist injury/surgery and even with the time off, I was able to quickly return to previous PRs in 6 - 8 weeks.
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Silverlooks
Caneguru
Training with Overcoming Isometrics exclusively since Jan 2017 - Using Sierra Hook + Iso-Strap
Posts: 220
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Post by Silverlooks on Aug 17, 2018 13:20:19 GMT
By the time I had returned to training (with isometrics) after stopping due to injury for a long period, all gains had diminished. I do not believe in "muscle memory". Those seeking to retain gains are just like fresh starters in terms of being far from the Plateau that is mostly the genetic limitation, although one can consider the "neurological adaptation" as a significant factor giving advantage to the former over the latter (given it survived the sedentary period). From lifting I learned how a decent workout 'felt' (which I later used as a basis for comparison) and proper exercise forms and postures. That's the entire carryover between these two training periods/methods I performed. I honestly don't know what would the results/variation-of be if someone starts with isometrics exclusively right from the beginning of his physical training. Strength/Hypertrophy is still a universe to discover, it has numerous variables and contributing factors. There appears to be validity to the muscle memory claim. One can lay off training for days, months and return to working out and within a short period of time rapidly regain most of their previous strength and eventually size gains. The skills -- gross and fine -- are also quickly regained. (Think about riding a bike...that too, is a complex skill. If you haven't been on a bicycle for a long period of time, you quickly 'relearn' the skills to ride the bike.) I took time off due to a wrist injury/surgery and even with the time off, I was able to quickly return to previous PRs in 6 - 8 weeks. A fresh starter can also have considerable gains in 6 - 8 weeks IF INSTRUCTED PROPERLY. It is the advantage of high development rate for being far from the Plateau. So I think muscle memory is not much more than accumulated experience.
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Post by gruntbrain on Aug 17, 2018 13:38:21 GMT
Hedge your bets by doing both even if it's overkill . I like the use of extra heavy weighted eccentrics .
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TexasRanger
Caneguru
A little here, a little there...
Posts: 2,223
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Post by TexasRanger on Aug 17, 2018 13:39:00 GMT
A fresh starter can also have considerable gains in 6 - 8 weeks IF INSTRUCTED PROPERLY. It is the advantage of high development rate for being far from the Plateau. So I think muscle memory is not much more than accumulated experience. Agree somewhat. Speaking from personal experience: 1. When I was a raw beginner, I went from a "first time" bench press of 165lbs x 6 or 7 very, very shaky reps to 185lbs in a couple of months. 2. When I returned to lifting after my injury, I went from a very cautious 185lbs to 315lbs in six weeks after a layoff of nearly four months.
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