Michael
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Post by Michael on Feb 20, 2019 22:04:57 GMT
Fred what are Your thoughts on muscle growth for a middle age or older man that has trained most of his life? Do You feel they just change in body composition or can they actually put on size without body fat? Forgot to add, without chemicals. I know what others will say but I'd like to hear your opinion if You don't mind. Sure you can. Just step up your routine. At age 65 I added over an inch to my arms in one month with my mega arm blasting routine. I'm thinking of doing it again at 70. I knew Your answer already.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Feb 20, 2019 22:08:22 GMT
Michael, all I can say is that at age 55 my shoulders and upper arms are noticeably bigger than ever before; my thighs also, I believe are bigger than ever, in fact I have trouble finding pants that fit because pants that have the proper waistline, I can't pull over my thighs. And I'm not fat either, my abs show although I don't have the freakish definition I had when doing all those long hold isometrics years ago. And these gains in muscle size are all in the last five years or so. And I've been training nonstop since I was 12. So I would have to say that yes you definitely can gain muscle mass even in your 50's. I have to add, also, that my diet is not really a mass building diet at all, I am a vegetarian and I really don't eat very much, not really enough to support large mass gains. If I went back to eating meat and structured my diet for gaining mass I would probably do even better. What would You attribute to Your gain of muscle mass in the last 5 years?
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Post by fredhutch on Feb 21, 2019 16:33:26 GMT
Michael, I really have no idea, you know that my training is all about strength and endurance combined, which is really not a mass-building program. But I would guess it's because I do very high volume and most of my sets are in the higher rep range. And I do lots of supersets and trisets for the same muscle, and lots of set extension techniques, such as rest pause, negatives, and so on. I did an hour PHA workout this morning and while I'm too busy to count sets, I probably did at least 45 sets, all of them to failure, and some extended past failure. I suspect that much of my ability to train this way and not burn out comes from my chi kung training...I seem to be able to do any kind of workout and not really get tired. The vegetarianism might also explain some of this ability, it has been often stated that vegetarians have better endurance than meat eaters. And I feel driven to do all these crazy set extensions and the like because if I do anything less it just doesn't feel challenging enough. I know that sounds impossible but that's what seems to be the case. That's why I'm always careful when giving advice especially about volume or high intensity techniques, I know that most normal guys just couldn't do things my way. But anyway I think the mass comes from the high volume. That isn't to say that low volume training doesn't work, I know from past experience that it does, although I remain convinced that the best results there come from alternating periods of high volume work with low volume work (this from Leo Costa's "Big Beyond Belief" program). That worked for me in years past and again, if I was really interested in putting on mass it is Leo's program that I personally would use. I might as well mention also that I have been very heavily influenced by Steve Holman's "Critical Mass" method, in which you train each bodypart with a mid-range movement, and also with peak contraction and stretched position movements...this makes a lot of sense to me and I try to include all three types of moves, where practical. And now that I'm thinking about it, I've also been heavily influenced by the writings of Anthony Ditillo, he advocated very high volume and also training, at times at least, the same exercise every day...for example he recounted how he did overhead presses every day and he got stronger and stronger. Again, conventional wisdom says this is impossible but I'm a believer; Anthony said in one of his articles that you could, by training every day, develop the ability to recover overnight, I found this to be the case during my last years with heavy barbell training, wrote an article about it myself for MILO....Anthony was at pains to point out that this high volume every day approach was for "natural" trainees, just the opposite of what most would tell you...in fact I remember Vince Gironda himself saying that those low volume HIT programs were designed for steroid users (well, Bill Pearl did say he heard about steroids from none other than Arthur Jones, Mr. HIT). Short answer: high volume, plenty of sets and reps...just what Arnold told everybody decades ago.
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Michael
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He cuts down trees. He wears high heels, suspendies, and a bra?!
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Post by Michael on Feb 21, 2019 17:51:22 GMT
Thanks for sharing that, very interesting.
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jonrock
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Post by jonrock on Feb 21, 2019 18:45:40 GMT
And now that I'm thinking about it, I've also been heavily influenced by the writings of Anthony Ditillo, he advocated very high volume and also training, at times at least, the same exercise every day...for example he recounted how he did overhead presses every day and he got stronger and stronger. Again, conventional wisdom says this is impossible but I'm a believer; Anthony said in one of his articles that you could, by training every day, develop the ability to recover overnight, I found this to be the case during my last years with heavy barbell training, wrote an article about it myself for MILO....Anthony was at pains to point out that this high volume every day approach was for "natural" trainees, just the opposite of what most would tell you... Ditillo was a beast and wrote many programs which remind of the bulgarian olympic training. Another guy talking about singles and frequent training,Jamie Lewis, broke a record that had stood in the squat for 40 years(raw). I prefer his old blog but it seems defunct now and redirects me here: plagueofstrength.com/you-asked-for-it-and-youve-got-i/
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jonrock
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Post by jonrock on Feb 21, 2019 22:38:45 GMT
Fredhutch, where can I read that article of yours?
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Michael
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He cuts down trees. He wears high heels, suspendies, and a bra?!
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Post by Michael on Feb 21, 2019 22:55:05 GMT
Michael, I really have no idea, you know that my training is all about strength and endurance combined, which is really not a mass-building program. But I would guess it's because I do very high volume and most of my sets are in the higher rep range. And I do lots of supersets and trisets for the same muscle, and lots of set extension techniques, such as rest pause, negatives, and so on. I did an hour PHA workout this morning and while I'm too busy to count sets, I probably did at least 45 sets, all of them to failure, and some extended past failure. I suspect that much of my ability to train this way and not burn out comes from my chi kung training...I seem to be able to do any kind of workout and not really get tired. The vegetarianism might also explain some of this ability, it has been often stated that vegetarians have better endurance than meat eaters. And I feel driven to do all these crazy set extensions and the like because if I do anything less it just doesn't feel challenging enough. I know that sounds impossible but that's what seems to be the case. That's why I'm always careful when giving advice especially about volume or high intensity techniques, I know that most normal guys just couldn't do things my way. But anyway I think the mass comes from the high volume. That isn't to say that low volume training doesn't work, I know from past experience that it does, although I remain convinced that the best results there come from alternating periods of high volume work with low volume work (this from Leo Costa's "Big Beyond Belief" program). That worked for me in years past and again, if I was really interested in putting on mass it is Leo's program that I personally would use. I might as well mention also that I have been very heavily influenced by Steve Holman's "Critical Mass" method, in which you train each bodypart with a mid-range movement, and also with peak contraction and stretched position movements...this makes a lot of sense to me and I try to include all three types of moves, where practical. And now that I'm thinking about it, I've also been heavily influenced by the writings of Anthony Ditillo, he advocated very high volume and also training, at times at least, the same exercise every day...for example he recounted how he did overhead presses every day and he got stronger and stronger. Again, conventional wisdom says this is impossible but I'm a believer; Anthony said in one of his articles that you could, by training every day, develop the ability to recover overnight, I found this to be the case during my last years with heavy barbell training, wrote an article about it myself for MILO....Anthony was at pains to point out that this high volume every day approach was for "natural" trainees, just the opposite of what most would tell you...in fact I remember Vince Gironda himself saying that those low volume HIT programs were designed for steroid users (well, Bill Pearl did say he heard about steroids from none other than Arthur Jones, Mr. HIT). Short answer: high volume, plenty of sets and reps...just what Arnold told everybody decades ago. I had to wait until I got home to post this. You talk about being vegetarian. I know this is not the same because it's vegan but he states the same as You. theeagleswire.usatoday.com/2018/12/19/eagles-malcolm-jenkins-credits-vegan-diet-for-his-consistent-success-on-the-field/ I know everyone has to find their own eating style through experimenting but I thought this was interesting. By the way, You're are a lucky man if Your appetite is not so big. I can't say that for myself.
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Post by fredhutch on Feb 22, 2019 17:29:16 GMT
jonrock, as I recall the title of that article was "Just Another Day at The Office: The Case for Daily Training" and it was in MILO, published by IronMind Enterprises, I can't recall when it appeared but it was probably in the early 2000's. MILO is no longer published although I think IronMind is still in business. You could probably locate the back issue through IronMind but they aren't cheap, I can't say if you would find it worth the money. But I'm always happy to discuss training here...and at no charge!
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Post by mr potatohead on Feb 22, 2019 21:06:45 GMT
Fred mentioned Leo Costa and "Big Beyond Belief". I was unfamiliar with him so I searched and found this interesting youtube:
I appreciate your posts, Fred.
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Michael
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He cuts down trees. He wears high heels, suspendies, and a bra?!
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Posts: 5,294
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Post by Michael on Feb 22, 2019 23:24:28 GMT
Thanks for posting that video Mikey, watching it in bits and pieces. Fred, I remember when I was in my 20's someone gave me the "Big Beyond Belief" and the Titan Training. I lost both in a move. I found this on the internet which seems to be different: www.rogerhardin.com/downloads/BigBeyondBelief-eBook.pdf Do You know the differences between his programs? Also if I remember right his diet was high protein and fat weekdays and he ate more carbs on the weekend? Did he follow Dr. DiPasquale Anabolic diet? Here's an example of it: www.muscleandstrength.com/expert-guides/anabolic-diet
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Post by fredhutch on Feb 23, 2019 17:08:10 GMT
Thanks Mikey, that's an interesting interview. Max respect to Leo, I've heard about his book about the strokes and would like to read it sometime soon. I think his "Big Beyond Belief" was his best program (I had all three). For one thing, his theories about changing the training volume explained my experience when I first tried a low volume program after doing a medium volume program...fantastic gains for about a month and then total standstill. The HIT guys will tell you that you're overtraining, or tell you to train even harder or less frequently, all things I did with no results...Leo shows that what is happening is that the low volume is actually undertraining after a few weeks, the solution is to "ramp up" by increasing volume to put your body in an "emergency" state again with maximum hormone secretion, and then drop the volume again to take advantage of your heightened adaptability. I used Leo's principles during my last years of heavy weight training with good results; I don't have the same goals anymore but if I was crazy mad to be a bodybuilder I would do BBB for sure. Leo also explained how it is that Anthony Ditillo and myself can train the same bodypart every day with good results...it's because a muscle recovers in 5 hours...even if it is still sore it's actually ready to go again.
Michael, that PDF looks like the book I had (I lost mine too!). I don't know about the diet...diet has never been my strong suit, I readily admit, it's where I really fall down. One of my goals in the near term is to get some better nutrition going. I did try the diet in Dan Duchaine's "Underground Body Opus" which I think is basically the same as the anabolic diet...made my feel like DEATH and I couldn't stay on it. Right now I'm a vegetarian and basically a carb burner which probably is not the best way to live. Maybe I should get married again....I did eat better!
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jonrock
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Post by jonrock on Feb 23, 2019 21:00:42 GMT
jonrock, as I recall the title of that article was "Just Another Day at The Office: The Case for Daily Training" and it was in MILO, published by IronMind Enterprises, I can't recall when it appeared but it was probably in the early 2000's. MILO is no longer published although I think IronMind is still in business. You could probably locate the back issue through IronMind but they aren't cheap, I can't say if you would find it worth the money. But I'm always happy to discuss training here...and at no charge! Fredhutch, In your experience, what would you say is the best approach to gaining as much lean mass as possible? And to gain strength? Thanks!
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Michael
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He cuts down trees. He wears high heels, suspendies, and a bra?!
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Posts: 5,294
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Post by Michael on Feb 23, 2019 21:30:37 GMT
Fred I've had the same experience with diets similar to the anabolic. I pretty much do the Mediterranean diet or like Clarence Bass. Pretty much close to vegetarian but without diary and soy. I just wish my appetite wasn't so hardy sometimes
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Post by fredhutch on Feb 24, 2019 17:48:27 GMT
jonrock, I don't think I'm really the right person to answer that question, my own achievements in muscle mass and strength are nothing to brag about. As far as mass goes, the above mentioned Leo Costa program is probably the best resource. The method of increasing training volume over a three week period, to the point where you are beginning to feel overtrained, and then doing an extremely low volume routine for three weeks, is a very powerful approach.
And as I mentioned above, I am a big believer in daily training; when you first start training every day, you feel really awful, but if you can stick with it for three weeks or so, suddenly your body adapts and then you are really going great...your strength starts to go up, you find that you recover very fast, and your work capacity just goes through the roof. This is what Anthony Ditillo said and that has been my experience. You not only get great work capacity for training, it also carries over to the rest of your day too....you feel like an unstoppable machine. It's a great feeling and well worth the effort.
One specific technique that always worked well for me, was doing non-lock repetitions...for example, on pullups stopping short of the bottom to keep tension on the lats, and so on. This was a favorite training method of Sergio Oliva. Worked pretty good for him!
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Post by gruntbrain on Feb 24, 2019 19:04:47 GMT
As Fred has indicated daily training doesn't necessarily result in overtraining . Frequent strength tests can provide objective feedback. Heart rate and blood pressure monitoring can also let you determine if you are overtraining . Meanwhile experience the joy of frequent ex .
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