Bob50
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Do what you can do, listen to your body, feel your body, drive your body.
Posts: 894
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Post by Bob50 on Sept 9, 2017 16:45:41 GMT
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Post by Bruce Tackett on Sept 9, 2017 17:32:09 GMT
Here's a link to the topic Seeker mentioned: www.tapatalk.com/groups/theofficebodybuildingworkout28918/kin-shi-hai-do-dead-lifts-t11365.htmlIt's an interesting discussion. If there's one thing I've learned it is that you can debate something 'til you're blue in the face, but the only way to determine the effectiveness of any system is to do it yourself. Years ago, when I first heard of this stuff, the debates were raging and the flame wars were intense. I decided to give it a shot so that I could speak on the subject based upon personal experience. After six weeks of Kin Shi-Hai Do, I was amazed at how truly effective it is. I had even added 1/4" to my already legendary arms. When I posted my results, I got battered by those who just wouldn't accept it. I got besieged with "studies" and physiological texts proving that it couldn't possibly work. Yet, here I was, the living proof that it does work. But, you can't convince someone whose mind is made up. Ever since then, if there's controversy, I don't voice an opinion unless it's based upon personal experience. And, Seeker, you are right. I've been doing KSHD lately and you can do the same exercises every day, if you want to.
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Mr Average
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Kegal Grand Master, 8th Dan BlackBelt in Origami, World Champion Couch Potato
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Post by Mr Average on Sept 9, 2017 18:11:07 GMT
To me it is down to how anyone define's strength, there are so many different form's of strength out there. You have:
1) Fighting strength, puching/kicking/striking power and the endurance to keep it going. 2) Gym strength, being able to lift/press/pull/push for either maximum weight or rep's etc... 3) Bodyweight strength being able to do pull up's/press up's etc........ 4) Manual working strength, being able to do what is needed day in and day out every day.
These are just a few, I have always believed that all form's of training work's, not one type of exercise out there is superior. I have probably done all kinds of training over the years, but for me manual work has always been the kicker, until my muscles get used to it.
As for studie's etc.. I always take them with a pinch of salt.
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Bob50
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Do what you can do, listen to your body, feel your body, drive your body.
Posts: 894
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Post by Bob50 on Sept 9, 2017 18:45:28 GMT
From my point of view, the listed different forms of strength are determined by two factors: 1. Specific forms of mind-muscle coordination/control 2. Structural/biochemical peculiarities of muscle fibers that are related to specific types of loading.
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Post by Bruce Tackett on Sept 9, 2017 18:57:42 GMT
I've never overly concerned myself with strength. It's such a relative thing. I mean, I could have begun building for strength at an early age, and I would have never come even close to the strength possessed by those monsters who compete in the strong man contests.
I began working out with the goal of building size. I did the standard 3 set/10 rep protocol, adding weight to my exercises as I was able to. So, after 12 years of this, a considerable gain in strength was an inevitable side product. I'm not the strongest guy in my hometown, but I'm stronger than the average bear, and that's just fine with me.
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Bob50
Caneguru
Do what you can do, listen to your body, feel your body, drive your body.
Posts: 894
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Post by Bob50 on Sept 9, 2017 19:32:27 GMT
Good point, Bruce. I also was not concerned with my muscle strength. I do my exercise to be fit and feel better in my 67. I agree that progressive weight lifting is a superior training to gain muscles and strength, but when we become older it is not the best choice. So, everyone should know his current physical capabilities. As I told many times, I prefer exercises like KSHD and add Xing Yi solo forms for speed and flexibility. Both approaches work for me. However, as many times was mentioned, we all are different and our bodies may require different types of loading.
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Post by Bruce Tackett on Sept 9, 2017 20:09:27 GMT
Yes, I've found that Xing Yi puts some xing into my workouts. You're 67?? You mean all this time I've been taking advice from a child?! I'm 68.
One aspect of KSHD that I find to be so cool is that your movements are completely unhampered by any sort of devices or equipment. You can move freely in any directions you want. I had begun doing curls and tri pushdowns with my arms down at my sides. Eventually I discovered that I could make both movements more effective by beginning the curls with my arms a bit outward in front of me and then bringing my fists up and over and down to my shoulders. And, also, going back down with the tri pushdowns, going more outward rather than downward better targets my triceps, and I turn my hands and go down with blade hands, focusing the resistance on the outer heels of my hands.
That's something else - you can channel resistance to any muscle(s) or portion of muscle(s) you want to with subtle movements of your fingers and hands.
One of my all time favorites is to sit and extend my arms straight out to the sides, parallel to the floor, and then curl my fists in towards my shoulders, turn my open palms outward, and push back out. You get a slow rhythm going and you can feel your biceps and triceps getting more and more pumped as you go back and forth. Back and forth, back and forth. All the time back and forth. It's crazy how I'm going back and forth, back and forth. This also hits your shoulders.
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Mr Average
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Kegal Grand Master, 8th Dan BlackBelt in Origami, World Champion Couch Potato
Posts: 1,461
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Post by Mr Average on Sept 9, 2017 20:09:47 GMT
From my point of view, the listed different forms of strength are determined by two factors: 1. Specific forms of mind-muscle coordination/control 2. Structural/biochemical peculiarities of muscle fibers that are related to specific types of loading. Everone is born with mind-muscle coordination/control, the fact that even while you are still in the womb, your mind is already coordinating/controlling your heart rate. Also the strongest muscle masseter muscles are coordinated/controlled other wise no one would be able to open their mouth from birth or in the womb.
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Post by Bruce Tackett on Sept 9, 2017 20:25:49 GMT
You're talking about mind/muscle control that occurs as a matter of course, essentially involuntarily. As it pertains to KSHD, and any exercise regime, really, it is voluntary mind/muscle control, where you really concentrate and focus on the movements your making. You've never seen a powerlifter walk up to a barbell and just willy-nilly pick it up. No, they get out there and take deep breaths, reach way down inside, and focus, focus, focus, channeling every bit of mind/muscle control they can muster.
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Bob50
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Do what you can do, listen to your body, feel your body, drive your body.
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Post by Bob50 on Sept 9, 2017 21:30:57 GMT
Blag, I agree, “Everyone is born with mind-muscle coordination/control,” but Bruce and me are talking about the focused control of muscle performance (factually some kind of Zen technique). If you are familiar with any martial art, you should know this old joke:
If you did not practice for 1 day, only you know about it If you did not practice for 3 days, your teacher knows about it If you did not practice for one weak, everyone knows about it.
This is what we are talking about, the perfect muscle driving
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Mr Average
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Kegal Grand Master, 8th Dan BlackBelt in Origami, World Champion Couch Potato
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Post by Mr Average on Sept 9, 2017 23:38:05 GMT
Yes I am familiar with martial arts, I am also familiar with realife incidents. I did work with vunerable adults with learning disabilities for 7 months, these where the violent types. The word no for example could get you attacked, the only techinics you could use was Price training. Me and many members of staff had plenty of incidents in the time I worked there. To me it was all about reaction time and not thinking about what I was going to do next. I was limited to only using the Price moves and anything outside of that, I could get arrested and possibly a prison sentence.
To cut a long story short the last incident I had ended up with me being arrested and going to court, 2 female members of staff just stood there while a male was trying to kick/bite/punch me for 15 minutes until male assistance arrived. I could not get away from him, you cannot turn your back on them, because they run on pure adrenaline when they go and they do not stop. The 2 females made statements that I did actions that are not part of Price, I was found not guilty because, their statements did not match and 1 admitted that she did not see or hear everything as clearly as she had written down.
I know it may be a bit off subject, but in my experience I believe that everyday life tests perfect muscle driving, just as well as anything else.
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Bob50
Caneguru
Do what you can do, listen to your body, feel your body, drive your body.
Posts: 894
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Post by Bob50 on Sept 10, 2017 0:16:10 GMT
Blag, Thank you for sharing your story. It is a really sad situation when you cannot defend yourself, and in addition, someone tries to convict you for nothing. I agree dangerous life situations are the best test for action.
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Post by Bruce Tackett on Sept 10, 2017 2:27:55 GMT
Yes I am familiar with martial arts, I am also familiar with realife incidents. I did work with vunerable adults with learning disabilities for 7 months, these where the violent types. The word no for example could get you attacked, the only techinics you could use was Price training. Me and many members of staff had plenty of incidents in the time I worked there. To me it was all about reaction time and not thinking about what I was going to do next. I was limited to only using the Price moves and anything outside of that, I could get arrested and possibly a prison sentence. To cut a long story short the last incident I had ended up with me being arrested and going to court, 2 female members of staff just stood there while a male was trying to kick/bite/punch me for 15 minutes until male assistance arrived. I could not get away from him, you cannot turn your back on them, because they run on pure adrenaline when they go and they do not stop. The 2 females made statements that I did actions that are not part of Price, I was found not guilty because, their statements did not match and 1 admitted that she did not see or hear everything as clearly as she had written down. I know it may be a bit off subject, but in my experience I believe that everyday life tests perfect muscle driving, just as well as anything else. Holy shit, blaggies! Where the heck did you work?! And what was up with those two bitches who didn't come to your defense?
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Post by Kubla Khan on Sept 10, 2017 8:07:27 GMT
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Mr Average
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Kegal Grand Master, 8th Dan BlackBelt in Origami, World Champion Couch Potato
Posts: 1,461
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Post by Mr Average on Sept 10, 2017 12:12:46 GMT
Yes I am familiar with martial arts, I am also familiar with realife incidents. I did work with vunerable adults with learning disabilities for 7 months, these where the violent types. The word no for example could get you attacked, the only techinics you could use was Price training. Me and many members of staff had plenty of incidents in the time I worked there. To me it was all about reaction time and not thinking about what I was going to do next. I was limited to only using the Price moves and anything outside of that, I could get arrested and possibly a prison sentence. To cut a long story short the last incident I had ended up with me being arrested and going to court, 2 female members of staff just stood there while a male was trying to kick/bite/punch me for 15 minutes until male assistance arrived. I could not get away from him, you cannot turn your back on them, because they run on pure adrenaline when they go and they do not stop. The 2 females made statements that I did actions that are not part of Price, I was found not guilty because, their statements did not match and 1 admitted that she did not see or hear everything as clearly as she had written down. I know it may be a bit off subject, but in my experience I believe that everyday life tests perfect muscle driving, just as well as anything else. Holy shit, blaggies! Where the heck did you work?! And what was up with those two bitches who didn't come to your defense? It is a home that houses these people, years ago they would have been in mental hospitals but the government chose to close a lot of those. It is cheaper for the government to put them in a home instead, as for the women I cannot, say why they did not do anything.
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