macky
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Post by macky on Jul 4, 2020 5:19:11 GMT
Quite obviously China and the WHO bear a great deal of responsibility for the spread of Covid 19. Trump has been a focus for me purely because what happens in America largely influences the rest of the world, especially the Five Eyes Group of countries of which NZ is a part, and Trump is the president.
I totally agree with Trumps' letter to the WHO withdrawing funds, and the reasons given thereof, btw. And NOTHING that comes out of China is to be believed at any time, without careful scrutiny.
And the media (or at least some media sources) certainly has played a role in the way Covid 19 has been viewed especially from other countries, but unless Trump has been continuously mis-quoted right from the start, then his attitude and his utterances/actions over the whole thing has been one of near-constant denial (it'll go away), self-contradiction (he's been quoted as favouring masks now) and still no real leadership on the matter. Apart from the lies he's told since the beginning of his presidency, his constant lying since Covid-19 has been well-documented. Are all those lies not true at all ? He's never said those things ? Is every single lie Trump has been reported as saying only complete bullshit ? I doubt it.
His disastrous rally at Tulsa recently where photos of his sycophants wearing no masks (that I could see, I could be wrong) if true was still a breeding ground for more infections and totally irresponsible. Of course, the lack of any visible social distancing was thumbing the nose at all the medical professionals that have tried their best to stem the virus, many who have died in the line of duty. Does that mean nothing to Trump or his henchmen/women ? And the 'number of cases rising because of more testing' while true in essence, reflects another Trumpism that ignores the plain question that if more cases are being caught by more testing, then how many more Covid 19 sufferers are out there that still remain unknown, given that the number of new cases are not plateauing out or decreasing, but are increasing by 40-50 thousand a day ?
The number of cases are not going down, and the percentage of false-positives can never be determined just by the fact that more testing reveals more possible cases, if not actual. There is a huge discrepancy between "50%" and "80%". It's ballpark figures and even if either are true, still prove on a daily basis that the number of reported truly positive cases are continuing to rise.
And yes, I've said from the start that in the number of cases vs the number of deaths, the rising number of cases are still as important because that's more patients with the potential to die, perhaps not always directly from Covid 19, but complications from their previous health problems caused by being compromised by the virus.
And whether the number of deaths are diminishing per numbers of cases or not, they are still rising.
There is another serious consideration. Researchers are presenting the possibility that Covid-19 like chicken pox stays in the system even after 'recovery'. People that have had chicken pox can suffer later in life from shingles, once their immune system becomes depleted.
Does that mean that once infected, always infected for life, with Covid 19 ? And at what point does a 'recovered' person begin to infect others all over again, if such a thing is true ?
There's still far too much that's undetermined about Covid 19, to be complacent. And a figure of 3 million reported cases in the US which in the early days was thought by many to be far-fetched (including Trump) will be reached in a few days time, less than six months after the first US reported case.
The fact that it's not diminishing presents a constant danger, and at the moment the numbers are open-ended because Covid-19 is on the increase in the United States, and there are still no overall indications that herd immunity is taking place, as far as I know.
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Post by mr potatohead on Jul 4, 2020 20:12:48 GMT
Everyone has the potential to die, but it's no valid excuse to shut down the world over it. So far, the US is tracking at all-cause mortality of less than average over the past 3 years or so, and by about -6%. Of course, people aren't going to the MD as much which is saving lives (third cause of death according to popular statistics), along with possibly less vehicle travel.
Yes. it's a basic misunderstanding of what virus are and do. There are trillions of virus in your body right now. Coronavirus are one group of them, in your body, now. It appears to be a good thing, that they are there to help the healthy immune system to facilitate recovery. Having trillions of virus in our body is not necessarily an infection, just as cholesterol is necessary to health, so are virus. Yes, to be human is to have some coronavirus in your body. Testing to see if it's there is like testing to see if you have blood in your veins.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jul 4, 2020 22:08:19 GMT
Well it's true that the world simply cannot be shut down because of Covid 19. The fragile state of the global economy has been highlighted by the virus, re competition between multi-nationals, countries, individuals and groups of all colours, sophisticated technology which while the going is good, quickly breaks down under emergencies, military operations, war, etc.
It's a demonstration of the disadvantages of Capitalism which while having some distinct advantages in the short term, fails the bulk of the People in the long run, unable to keep up with the expanding global population, and rendering an exclusive class of Haves at the top of the Money Tree at the cost of jobs, middle-class lifestyles and social balances.
And let's be sure on the fact that China also practices Capitalism.
Regarding Covid-19, I agree with mikey on the carrying of trillions of viruses etc as a normal part of everyday human biological life, but I continue to point out that Covid-19 is a new strain which
1) There is no vaccine for as yet 2) Much is unknown about the way Covid 19 acts on the body, or perhaps the multiple ways it acts 3) Is still continuing to spread by the day in the tens of thousands of new cases (genuine or not) reported, which leads to 4) Testing even after months of terrible experiences with Covid 19 is still not 100% because of several factors, including 2) 5) There is apparently no evidence of herd immunity taking place, which then leads to the awful conclusion (so far) that humans are not yet ready to be able to combat Covid-19 in the ways they tolerate levels of other corona viruses as we speak.
Given all of the above, and because the world cannot simply shut down, what we as individuals and groups CAN do is wear masks, or at least maintain social distancing and practice other cleansing such as washing hands, disinfecting surfaces which have been touched by others, covering up coughing and sneezing, staying home when one has possible symptoms of the disease etc. In other words, being as careful as possible not to get in the way of another person's "atmosphere" and door handles.
That is not happening in America.
I cite Trump's disastrous Tulsa rally as an example at the top of completely ignoring all of the above, and it is poetic justice in my opinion that despite his assertions that "100,000" would be there, only a paltry 6000 or so turned up.
Good job.
And there will be almost certainly more new cases resulting directly from the close contact of the rally, and not that I would wish Covid 19 infection on anybody, the Rally-Trumpians who end up infected have only themselves to blame for that.
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Post by vegetus25 on Jul 4, 2020 23:25:06 GMT
Hey Mr. P, where are you getting the third cause of death info?
Thanks
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Post by mr potatohead on Jul 5, 2020 1:25:23 GMT
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Post by mr potatohead on Jul 5, 2020 1:40:20 GMT
macky; Please check out Andrew Kaufman MD to learn about virus. He's my source on it, altough he's not the only one.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jul 5, 2020 1:54:30 GMT
macky; Please check out Andrew Kaufman MD to learn about virus. He's my source on it, altough he's not the only one. Sure, I'll do that mikey. I value the quality of your information greatly. Give me a few hours. I've gotta go out and visit some Fijian Indians :-)
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Post by mr potatohead on Jul 5, 2020 2:05:35 GMT
Take your time m8. There is a lot that he unpacks and it takes some time to sort, although he is quite easily understood.
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Post by vegetus25 on Jul 5, 2020 2:16:54 GMT
Thanks, Mr. P. Those numbers seemed high, so I gave a quick look and found this paper. You could still be right. I have never had great faith in our medical establishment. I have always tried to avoid docs (mainly because they just seem to throw drugs at us rather than finding a cause) and will continue to do so regardless of what the actual number of deaths is. They also have almost no training in nutrition which I think is one of the most important parts of caring for our health. The good new is with around 883,000,000 doctor visits a year in the US, even if the high end of 440,000 deaths a year were correct, that would be a .00049% chance of a fatal encounter. So since you don't seemed too worried about the rona you really shouldn't be worried about seeing a doc. www.physiciansweekly.com/third-leading-cause-of-death-revisited/
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Post by vegetus25 on Jul 5, 2020 2:44:39 GMT
Of course, you could drop the old abortion bomb and vault docs from the third leading cause of death (or whatever it is) to a solid number one. (as if this thread wasn't contentious enough veg had to go and bring up abortion...way to go, plant boy...don't you have some carrots to eat or something?)
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Post by BigBruvOfEnglandUK on Jul 5, 2020 4:53:13 GMT
There wasn't a dramatic increase in covid-19 related deaths because of the rally in Tulsa or the BLM protests that happened in several countries. Same with all the people that went to UK beaches just recently. Plenty of Facebook lockdown sheep were bleating on about the coming doom that never happened. Trump made a joke that they could always cut back on testing and that would reduce the number of new cases. Maybe they should? At least that way people might stop rattling on about cases? Testing for cases is useful in tracking the spread and for getting the infected to go into quarantine. Following the daily deaths tells you if the situation is getting better or worse. NZ can handle the situation how it likes. Trump has had no influence on how NZ has handled the situation so far and is unlikely to in the future. Five eyes or not. USA has done more tests percentage of population wise than Belgium, Australia, Maldives, Kuwait, Italy, Ireland, Kazakhstan, Latvia and New Zealand. Damn that Trump for allowing so many tests! Major testing blitz going on around here now. Australia has been smugly patting itself on the back since daily death figures went down in April but is now bracing itself for an increase in deaths. Lockdowns were eased recently but some restrictions brought back in all over Victoria and some of the state's postcodes have now gone back into stricter lockdowns as they are deemed "hotspots". Nobody allowed to pay social visits to those postcodes and residents only allowed out of those areas for school, food shopping, work, care or care providing. 3000 residents in some council apartment blocks in Melbourne are in a very strict lockdown and are not allowed to leave home for any reason except medical I think? Police guarding every floor. Food will be delivered to the residents.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jul 5, 2020 8:08:11 GMT
No deaths whatsoever can be expected from the Tulsa rally, to date. There's not enough time for infection, incubation and possible death. I was commenting on the rally re the utter disregard for accepted social distancing and other measures that people can take, to at least try and minimize the possibility of getting infected. It's taking civil responsibility for not only yourself, but for others who may become infected by your presence, should you contract the disease.
Trump as the (visible) head of America and his rally followers are virtually thumbing their noses at all the health workers who have been at the sharp end of Covid 19, some of whom have themselves paid with their lives, as I've already mentioned. It's irresponsible, and coming from the Top, totally unacceptable. Thank Upstairs there were only a fraction of the projected numbers attending.
"Coming doom" is only speculation at present. But since Jan 20 when the first reported US case was notified, the US now has approx 130,000 less people since then. The true number will probably never be known, because of pre-test days when doctors ascribed patient deaths through the flu, or similar. And the plain fact that numbers of deaths are still increasing shows that the virus is far from any control measures at present.
And I still maintain that numbers of cases are important, because of the simple fact that reports now exist of discharged "recovered" patients are mentally and therefore physically impaired. That's a good enough reason in my book for focus on number of reported cases (as well as deaths). How many more will be crippled for life ?
When that starts plateauing out and reducing on a daily basis, then we could say that certain measures are taking effect. That is NOT happening.
Talking about NZ depending on America, that's not only because once flights from America start in earnest (and elsewhere) we are going to have a second wave, given that the States haven't got things under control.
I'm also talking about militarily and economically. If the US doesn't wake up soon and start looking outside its country in the other direction, it won't be too many years before we will be forced to speak Mandarin. Already the Chinese have had great influence on some of the Pacific islands with "investment" in local areas. Reported to me 4 years ago by a Samoan church pastor's wife, Samoan children are now learning Mandarin in school. That's worrying. In NZ, Chinese businessmen have bought up land and other assets using interest-free loans from China, and cases of harrassent on local Falun Gong practitioners in NZ haven't been reported by the Press, because of the Gutless Ones here who pander to the sort of behaviour by Chinese used to doing the same in their own country.
Economically, American business interests virtually had the country's nerve network handed to them in the 80's by the traitors starting in 1984, and an assorted bunch of further traitors following them into the next govt after elections. That still hasn't changed and probably never will now that NZ labour was opened up under the guise of "we must compete" to hundreds of millions of "dollar a day" labour in the Far East, the way the American moneyed fraternity likes it.
So yes, what happens in America is important to NZ, and Oz actually as well. Australia is well known over here as "Little America" and I saw signs of that about 620 months ago when I was in Melbourne for five months.
If the US doesn't pull its finger out and get its act together re the virus, then the economic damage to NZ and other Five Eyes countries could be vast. Already months ago, the husband of one of my cousins down south lost his job in NZ because the company he worked for was based in California. They only had another year to go before their mortgages were paid off, now they are having to sell their house and land. That's the fragility of Global economics re rampant Capitalism a la America.
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Post by mr potatohead on Jul 5, 2020 13:29:34 GMT
1. ..... And the plain fact that numbers of deaths are still increasing shows that the virus is far from any control measures at present. .... ..... When that starts plateauing out and reducing on a daily basis, then we could say that certain measures are taking effect. That is NOT happening. .... 2. ..... And I still maintain that numbers of cases are important, because of the simple fact that reports now exist of discharged "recovered" patients are mentally and therefore physically impaired. That's a good enough reason in my book for focus on number of reported cases (as well as deaths). How many more will be crippled for life ? .... Sorry m8, I had to rearrange the order slightly. 1. From what I've seen of the numbers of the supposed virus, the numbers follow a weekly pattern, not a daily pattern, so reducing on a daily basis will be impossible, IMO. The weekly numbers show death from the diagnosis of CV as being involved has continued to DEcrease , even though number of cases continues to increase. Notice the graph for U.S. deaths @ 0:24 in this video: 2. You're referring to impairment and crippling of hospitalized people who were diagnosed with CV, hospitalized and then dismissed from hospitals? That doesn't include the ones who did not go to a hospital? Then, yes, more people will be damaged by the medical industry that provides improper treatment resulting in damage and impairment.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jul 5, 2020 20:44:02 GMT
2) Basically yes mikey, from the info I accessed. That raises another aspect of mental/physical impairment that will probably never be accurately fixed in stats, or even publicly known. Those damaged that were NOT hospitalized.
The info went into some detail about how the virus might be attacking the brain, not only through the spinal route but also through the vagus nerve which connects the brain with the abdomen.
"Then, yes, more people will be damaged by the medical industry that provides improper treatment resulting in damage and impairment. " For sure. It's another solid reason that demonstrates the lack of firm (or more complete) knowledge about the way the virus acts in the body. Which echoes my concerns re the increasing numbers of cases and deaths, never mind the numerical proportions/percentages.
Have you got a link or two about Andrew Kaufman that you have been scanning, mikey ? All I can find so far are a whole lot of sites that are making unfounded assertions and rubbishy statements.
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Post by macky on Jul 6, 2020 6:30:00 GMT
Okay I finally found a couple of youtubes of Dr Andrew Kaufman
So the information on these two youtubes alone tell plenty, assuming Kaufman is correct, and which given his straight-forward presentation and qualifications I have no reason to disbelieve.
Fairly early in this thread, we discussed how Covid 19 is being attributed to cause of deaths even when other factors may be present, in general. That was a given, and I said at the time that IF the testing was the same around the world for cases and cause of death re Covid 19, then America with its much larger figures would still be on the same level playing field as other countries, therefore the figures were essentially a reasonable comparison globally, if not accurate.
The main things I got from these two youtubes was the extreme extent to which Covid 19 was being attributed to cause of deaths e.g. a motor accident which now cannot be claimed on (insurance) because of such attribution. Another example given was a shooting of a marital partner while in Lockdown because of Covid 19, Covid 19 the cause on the death certificate.
That is plainly fraudulent in any man's language, educated or not, and then it doesn't take long before more information comes out that it not only is the CDC issuing orders on Covid 19 guidelines, but that CDC is largely privately funded. By our old friend, Big Pharma.
According to Kaufman, there are many doctors who also question said CDC's guidelines as per Covid 19 cause of death. Where are they ? Worried about being de-registered by the PTB ?
At that point, the same old penny drops as per the grip over the American People that corporate power has, and the lack of govt control. Ultimately the voting citizens are once again nobbled by Big Money acting outside of any public voting system. That's not democracy at all. It's Rampant Capitalism of the worst kind. That's worse than totalitarianism. People in those such countries know they are repressed. In America, it's all under stealth. Then there is the question that if testing for Covid 19 is such "weak science", as Kaufman puts it, "fraud" even, then what was filling up all the hospitals in the Hot areas ? What have all these patients, both discharged and deceased been suffering from, that was serious enough to have admitted them in hospitals, in the first place ?
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