macky
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Post by macky on Aug 31, 2018 23:28:06 GMT
Interesting report Macky , and also that you stopped and chose to remain more "grounded" Never done Bagua , but had a very brief circle walking experience at a previously mentioned workshop.Don't think it was Bagua , maybe some shamanic thing.Walking in a circle , both direcions and a very small movement with the hands as if you were pulling aside a very small pair of curtains from in front of you eyes , felt pretty ridiculous at first but i cast that aside and just did it.Only about 15 minutes but went a strange state , bit of a trance but hyper aware. Where I might have ended up had I continued the circling I do not know Kubla. I loved my wife and daughter as much as ever before but they both felt me becoming remote, somehow. That would probably have passed by another month but I didn't want to take the risk. The Master Paul Kuo predominantly shown in Robert Smith's pakua book ( available on Amazon as a kindle for about $8, I can't find the link I posted before for the free book) said in his chapter in Smith's Chinese Boxing book that it was possible to gain a certain level of chi kung/internal energy development in three months, where the lower back would be no longer stiff and become extremely supple, the arms would be very strong, and a tranquil air would be all-pervading, the practice given over to feeling, free from analysis etc.
Most masters until then would never concede that, asserting that ten years for such development was more the norm. Another aspect of pakua as an internal martial art is the repelling of aggression without being subject to any analysis of how one did it. The action whatever it was would be appropriate for the level of aggression in the attack.
Most martial artists/fighters would never agree with that, but then again, the Internal Arts are forms of meditation with fighting and health techniques inbuilt into the practice. One would never take that into a contest and expect to do very well. Contests have rules that forbid certain techniques inherent in Internal martial arts (and "external) being used.
When one circles, whether in Pakua or say Tibetan Rite No.1, especially with outstretched arms with the "wiring of the body", the nerves in the arms continuously cutting through the Earth's magnetic field with a similar nature as an electric generator, is it not conceivable that an electric charge is being slowly but surely built up inside the body's chi reservoirs, chi being the bio-electricity for which we not be alive without ? I think I read that whirling dervishes are known for their health and robustness. Fast circling is certainly employed as a standard technique in Persian wrestling's Houses Of Power.
And even continued "straight" movements with arms extended can do the same thing, perhaps not as much but still definite ? And all that can be enhanced with the Mind concentrated on it's electrically-driven brain to direct said electrical charge (chi) to appropriate areas such as the fist, and/or the lower dantien ?
What is so mystical about that ? Even after say 500 ping shuai arm swings back and forth then standing relaxed afterwards one can feel the energy running through the arms and into the body. Of course some of the feeling may include blood but the main tingling and 'energy feeling' is much faster than blood flow. And can be felt inside the body moving around, something which I've never felt with the blood flow.
I'll be stepping up my Ping Shuai practice again from now on. It's the only exercise (both chi kung and "conventional") I've ever kept a diary on before, and I'll be starting that up once more, not so much to up the number of swings but to maintain a consistency without being too picky about it. I'll be looking at between 1000 and 1500 a day, as I did last time in 2016. I always did some Ping Shuai while I focused in isometrics predominantly, but it will be the other way around now.
I tried some Tibetans and still like them a lot but they irritate the inguinal hernia repairs and I can't afford to bust any stitches. A pity really.
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Post by Kubla Khan on Sept 1, 2018 7:29:23 GMT
Good for you , you may have ended up in the void and stuff becoming remote as you say , an observer rather than participant in life. Even just bending my legs and walking in a circle , waving my arms around , circling and spiralling not Bagua but just me playing , feels very powerful. The real thing must be so much more so. I'd never considered that about the first Tibetan , more than inner ear balance going on.Pity about the Tibetans , but it is sensible as 5 of them involve bending back and forward at the waist.Very occasionally i get to the 2nd and just don't feel like doing the leg lifts so stop and have a day off.They are a good little routine , fairly complete , somehow more than the sum of their parts but i'm sure chi kung is as good or better.If you feel you need the strengthening and stretch elements , the yoga surya namaskar (sun salutation) is a great flowing , full body move , with enough variations to find a suitable one. Good luck with the swinging arms , look forward to hearing how it goes.I know you won't stop your isos , are you just cutting back on the times i.e. 30, 30 .30 ? I shall also be increasing my chi kung ,i do a routine i've mentioned before and want to do 30 days continuous practice to see how that feels.I also enjoy spontaneous chi kung/movement.
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macky
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Post by macky on Sept 1, 2018 9:55:49 GMT
All good Kubla You've obviously grasped the circling around aspect with you bending your legs as you walk in a circle etc. One of the postures in the book (and which I did) was the arms held out the side while walking the circle slowly (it was all slow walking) with the elbows bent and the hands held as though you are carrying plates to a table. The palms are facing up. I think it was the dragon posture. As in all the circling, when the changes were not being made (in direction to walk back the other way) the head was always turned into the center, because that's where your opponent is.
When I wrote a lot on this back on the older forum it was in response to a post made of a so-called Pakua practitioner on a youtube walking in a circle holding a metal frame doing exercises with it, and I think another bit he was using a Bullworker. I posted some criticisms of him (he had PAKUA across the back of his jacket) as to what was he doing ? What he in fact was doing was a novel form of conventional exercise, but it wasn't Pakua. His head was straight as he focused on the equipment he was turning and working in his hands, not turned to the center of the circle. His eyes were flicking around on the equipment, not calmly staring at an upright hand held out towards the center. Working the equipment he was not performing Pakua techniques, and his balance from working the equipment was off, he having to take an extra step to the side as his center of gravity shifted when he turned the equipment. I'm not a purist nor am I any authority but the whole thing was ridiculous.
The fact that mitigating comments were coming from some of the posters in reply showed a classic example of misunderstanding of Internal martial arts, and of how original teachings have been distorted over the years. Of course Masters back in the Far East have always added their own touch to the classical forms but have still kept to the principles of Internal Arts, which if you understand any one, you understand all three.
Yes I'll be still on with the isometrics but I've already toned down the 30-30-30 to 20-20-20, or 20-20-10-10. I'll probably end up doing sub-max straight 60's or longer. The Zhan Zhuang postures are in fact yielding isometrics and I've often toyed with the idea of sub-max "overcoming" isometrics for longer periods being much the same, the longer holds at a lower intensity gradually building up but enabling a meditative aspect to be applied at the same time, a stillness under moderate effort so to speak. Like the standing postures, the sub-max holds can start off easy but become very demanding after a while.
I've knocked off a full-body workout with sub-max 60's from time to time and it still feels like a decent compact unified feeling afterwards in the muscles, the holds nowhere near held to failure.
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Bob50
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Post by Bob50 on Sept 1, 2018 16:38:42 GMT
Many people who are long time in Tai Chi and other internal arts, can feel the energy flows in their bodies when they just see performance of others, and they can easy determine a poor performance or just gym fakes.
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Post by mr potatohead on Sept 1, 2018 17:02:23 GMT
Firstly, the belief that "nothing exists if science hasn't proved it" is illogical for more than one reason. 1. Science continues to find that the more it finds out, the more there is to find out. It is not a closed system of knowledge, so if something is not known by science, that doesn't necessarily means it doesn't exist. 2. The history of science is filled with erroneous statements by scientists that "something" is impossible, or that there "will never be any use for it" etc etc etc . If I had gone around in 1900 stating that one day less than 70 years into the future man will have walked on the Moon, and that there will be 250 ton aircraft flying through the air at 30,000 feet at 500+ mph I would have been chucked into the looney bin. The attitude that everything depends in science for its authenticity is itself merely a belief. In some quarters said belief approaches religiosity. 3. At the end of the day, science (as we know it) is not the all and end-all. The Mind is. It is the Mind that constructed the tenets of science in order to bring natural laws and processes into the understanding of the Mind. Science is a construction of the Mind, often using another Mind-construction, mathematics. Science is not some primordial Universal Truth stumbled over by Mankind in his evolution. It is a Mind-construct. Therefore what is not understood by science is not necessarily untrue, or non-existent.
Exactly.
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macky
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Post by macky on Sept 2, 2018 21:17:46 GMT
I've learned Qi Gong from different teachers, first was several specific for leg strengthening, another series for lung function and an acupuncture doctor lent me a vhs on Qi Gong for skin conditions. I would be very interested to know the series you did for lung function, Henry, if you can share it with us.
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macky
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Post by macky on Sept 2, 2018 21:35:15 GMT
Many people who are long time in Tai Chi and other internal arts, can feel the energy flows in their bodies when they just see performance of others, and they can easy determine a poor performance or just gym fakes. I believe you are one of those, Bob.
I went to a Chinese display a few years back that showed among other things a lady master demonstrating push hands, and an older guy performing a Tai Chi form. A "white" guy, he had recovered from a serious diabetic condition over about 2 years of Tai Chi and chi kung practice and alleged he no longer took meds for the diabetes.
Then a troupe of mature Chinese ladies began to perform a delightful fan dance routine, and I found myself suddenly nearly bursting into tears for some reason I know not what.
With the music and their graceful movements, I felt like I was somewhere else in time and space.
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macky
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Post by macky on Sept 2, 2018 22:43:50 GMT
Thank you Henry. Much appreciated.
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Bob50
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Post by Bob50 on Sept 3, 2018 4:12:01 GMT
Macky, I always try to see Tai Chi performers with turning speaker off. From my point of view, mind/body "internal energy (Qi)" driving and music are incompatible. Try to see young lady's performance posted above without sound, and you will feel energy moving in your body in accordance with her movements. Although her external performance is really good, you will find that some her positions, speed, angles, and coordination of movements can restrict/block continuous energy flow/circulation in her body. In internal arts, "energy" should move first and pull the body, not vice versa.
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macky
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Post by macky on Sept 3, 2018 9:08:20 GMT
Macky, I always try to see Tai Chi performers with turning speaker off. From my point of view, mind/body "internal energy (Qi)" driving and music are incompatible. Try to see young lady's performance posted above without sound, and you will feel energy moving in your body in accordance with her movements. Although her external performance is really good, you will find that some her positions, speed, angles, and coordination of movements can restrict/block continuous energy flow/circulation in her body. In internal arts, "energy" should move first and pull the body, not vice versa. Thanks for the tips Bob. I understand exactly what you're saying about the music.
As far as form is concerned, I wouldn't have a clue, but I still enjoy the performance. I wonder if a little bit of extra stress on the occasion had something to do with it ? Just for me, I felt her quick movements across my upper back, a sort of "gentle shiver".
Yes I've always gone with Mind, Energy, Form, in that order, even with the simple movements I prefer.
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Bob50
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Post by Bob50 on Sept 3, 2018 14:43:16 GMT
In the Chen Taiji video is a jump kick, we would do this on it's own, jump and slap the top of the right foot then immediately jump and slap the top of the left foot, repeat several times. Used as a warm-up.
Bob50, what style(s) of Taiji do you train, what Country and teachers ?
Hi Henry, I tried to learn three styles of Tai Chi because I wanted to find a style that would have a real combat application. I started with Yang style, then Chen (Pao Chui), and finally Sun Lu Tang combined style. After Sun's style, I have finally switched to Sun's Xing Yi Quan, as more practical fighting style, and leaned it for the considerable time. I did not attend Tai Chi seminars for long periods because I could not find what I wanted. In 80s-90s, many Chinese teachers and their students have flooded Western and Eastern Europe. I had several instructors, who claimed that they are followers of notable masters and famous lines (who knows?) I do not remember their real Chinese names as they frequently used similar western ones during our conversations. However, it is not so important. We know that the best our teacher is a consistent practice.
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Bob50
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Post by Bob50 on Sept 3, 2018 15:36:55 GMT
Do you "buy" this Chi power demonstration? I do not.
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Post by Kubla Khan on Sept 3, 2018 16:28:44 GMT
I'm certainly no expert , the girl doing the tai chi is very good , but more external than internal and more of a performance. This looks and feels more real to me somehow , but i can't explain why.
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Post by mr potatohead on Sept 3, 2018 20:13:14 GMT
Bob50, When I was doing Systema it was more of a demonstration of how people reacted, someone charging and all you do is hold out your arm with a fist the person charging will suddenly stops and sometimes fall back, not coz of Chi or out but not wanting to get hit in the gob or what they think is going to happen.
Someone "charging" from more than arms distance, I assume? Doesn't shit usually go down at much closer quarters?
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Bob50
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Post by Bob50 on Sept 3, 2018 23:47:54 GMT
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