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Post by Kubla Khan on Aug 25, 2018 18:47:22 GMT
That is a very good 8 brocades vid ,thanks Macky , i'm going to try it.The one i know is in the Way of energy book , but good to actually see it performed.
This doesn't seem like your version or any other i've seen,some tension and speed , but i find it intriguing.He really seems to know what he's doing and i could imagine you'd feel great afterwards.Not an instructional demo , but thought it might interest you.
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Post by macky on Aug 25, 2018 23:29:09 GMT
That is a very good 8 brocades vid ,thanks Macky , i'm going to try it.The one i know is in the Way of energy book , but good to actually see it performed. This doesn't seem like your version or any other i've seen,some tension and speed , but i find it intriguing.He really seems to know what he's doing and i could imagine you'd feel great afterwards.Not an instructional demo , but thought it might interest you. Thank you Kubla Khan. This is a very good video. As far as I've been able to make out, Yi Jin Jing was always a dynamic tension drill, and the arguments have raged for years on whether chi kung exercises should be tensed or relaxed.
Including debates between Chinese masters as well as Western practitioners, both sides having notable examples of good health and power.
This video shows a balance in my opinion, between slow and fast, tensed and relaxed.
Re the 8 brocades, there are many styles, the Way of Energy book showing a relaxed style. The video I posted shows another good style and there are many more on youtube, obviously by competent masters of the system.
As in martial art styles having different purposes for their origins (e.g. Okinawan karate as against Wing Chun, the former the ability to fight empty hand against armed soldiers and penetrate bamboo armour, the Wing Chun devised as short-range techniques against larger stronger opponents by Nuns) so your methods of chi kung may have the same different goals.
Perhaps one done relaxed in the morning and the same drills done tensed in the evening may be beneficial ? Be careful trying to focus chi in the same manner as you would in the relaxed style, when you're doing tensed drills. In that case, the mind should be on the muscles being tensed. There are reports of practitioners vomiting blood after focusing chi in the same manner as relaxed exercises, when doing them tensed.
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Post by Kubla Khan on Aug 26, 2018 7:33:14 GMT
Thanks Macky , i always enjoy your insights on chi kung etc.I have experienced a few strange things like yourself so know there is a lot more going on than meets the eye. In the way of Energy , the 8 brocades is done relaxed and as a warm up for standing.In the more advanced stages , he mentions imagining you are lifting or pushing gradually increasing weights .He says to use the mind not the muscles , i guess this might lead to the relaxed strength and power you referred to , not that i've got that far. We have corresponded before , still doing the 5 Tibetans , are you still doing the swing arms exercise along with the isometrics?
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Post by macky on Aug 26, 2018 9:47:02 GMT
Yes Sir, not as much as before because I've been concentrating on isometrics. It's always been a bit of a balancing act with me. If I neglect the mindful exercises and just do isometrics then after a while I find "something" badly lacking in my daily existence, whereas if I only do swinging arms or other relaxed chi kung, I don't feel as robust for the daily tasks of looking after my grandchildren and working around the house, although I will be very well, even though asthmatic. At 70 and of light bone structure, I seem to lose muscle fairly quickly.
I tend to not bother with normal routine things when I get into chi kung exclusively as well. The universe is full off energy dancing around in the sunshine and to hell with the household jobs :-) The isometrics are great fun, but I've been adding more chi kung at the other end of the day lately, trying to balance things out. Swinging arms is always good, the movements simple and the mind on the dantien. Standing afterwards for a while, one feels the energy flowing down to the fingertips then back up and through the shoulders and into the body.
I'm going to try the five Tibetans on again now as well. I pottered around with No.5 today and found how weak on the movement I had become, even though I've strengthened up quite a bit with the isometrics. I'll take it really slow and build up gradually and we'll see how we get on.
The Way of Energy using the mind to image a weight while relaxed pushing against it is a technique used by several internal artists. The Tai Chi master who comes to the old folks home (where I play the piano on Saturdays) once a week for half an hour of seated chi kung says the same thing. Use the imagination not tensed strength. He is built like he lifts weights. I've never seen anyone with such muscular calves, even in bodybuilders. Whether he does tension training or not I don't know.
Your relaxed strength and power you speak of is the same. It's okay to just get the movements of the (say) 8 brocades instilled in the mind, then concentrate on "conscious movement" and the lower dantien, and you'll get it. There's not always a definite level in strength that you can say you've attained however. It's another reason why some masters stress not to have goals in chi kung. Just do them every day. Then one day you'll have your mind on performing some routine daily task and you'll suddenly feel extra strength surging through you. Now and then I accidently pull a handle off a cup or break a plate by bending it while washing dishes, when I've been spending more time on chi kung. I've got a bit of a "one pack" that I don't train with tensed exercise, but I can take a decent punch by tensing it. It's come from all the years of abdominal/dantien breathing. Many people don't believe it but that's okay, no worries :-)
Years ago I used to let one of my brothers-in-law squash my relaxed hand as hard as he could with his grip, grinding my knuckles together and squeezing the fingers. As long as he didn't bend my fingers back it had no effect at all, the relaxed hand taking everything he could give. There are stories of Internal practitioners taking punches just like External artists, but in a relaxed manner without effect, as long as it wasn't the eyes or family jewels targeted.
It's been a constant conflict with me for decades, the training of tensed strength, or "mind" strength. I've had good results from both, but overall, the mind strength was more satisfying even though the isometrics are fun too.
Hard or soft, internal or external, there's a bit of both in either, and the Mind is paramount either way, either concentrating on life energy in Internal, or muscles in External.
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Post by Bob50 on Aug 26, 2018 17:18:29 GMT
When I perform KSHD with continuous moderate muscle co-tension and with closed eyes, I can see my body parts as a combination of moving light spots or whole "lighting energetic body". It is also seen under absolute dark conditions. No mystery. I could suggest that this effect is related to intra-brain connection (irradiation of excitation) between the motor and visual cortex that is established after some period of practice.
Another thing is a rubber-like structure of the body that is established after regular Chi(Qi)gong practice. Factually, the body muscles are not absolutely relaxed, but they keep some level of tension. They are easy involved in any mind-directed movements as one unit via perfect mind-body connection that is also established by this regular practice. As I understand, it is a source of "internal" power in the "internal" martial arts like Tai Chi, Xing Yi and Bagua Zhang.
P.S. Honestly, I do not see the real conflict between training of "tensed" strength and "mind" strength. I just try to keep the level of muscle tension that does not interfere with the mind involvement in movements.
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Post by macky on Aug 26, 2018 23:16:49 GMT
When I perform KSHD with continuous moderate muscle co-tension and with closed eyes, I can see my body parts as a combination of moving light spots or whole "lighting energetic body". It is also seen under absolute dark conditions. No mystery. I could suggest that this effect is related to intra-brain connection (irradiation of excitation) between the motor and visual cortex that is established after some period of practice. Another thing is a rubber-like structure of the body that is established after regular Chi(Qi)gong practice. Factually, the body muscles are not absolutely relaxed, but they keep some level of tension. They are easy involved in any mind-directed movements as one unit via perfect mind-body connection that is also established by this regular practice. As I understand, it is a source of "internal" power in the "internal" martial arts like Tai Chi, Xing Yi and Bagua Zhang. P.S. Honestly, I do not see the real conflict between training of "tensed" strength and "mind" strength. I just try to keep the level of muscle tension that does not interfere with the mind involvement in movements. Bob's post here should be read several times for those who are into chi kung, and even exercise in general. It demonstrates an enlightened approach to his exercise that reflects the ideal Middle Way in my opinion, a combined Mind, Body, dare I say "Universal Awareness" practice all-encompassing.
The External and Internal I mention having conflict with I should have explained that it was the extremes of such practices. Practices that we try to label in attempts to define what we are talking about in a world of "precise" definitions and pigeon-holes. There is so much argument on the Net between martial arts practitioners, "hard" qigong, "soft" kung fu etc etc. That carries on into the bodybuilding world with "ultimate contraction" of muscles and the like as physical culturists debate the ideal forms of exercise to achieve such a state.
Books written by the likes of Robert Smith describe the "differences" between internal and external martial arts. My view it that this has set up the global forum for such ongoing debates in the Western world. Admittedly, Pakua chang e.g. certainly does have a different mental approach than (say) karate in how much and when tension should be applied.
There are Tai Chi players I've seen who look like their arms are wet rags, the only tension in their bodies barely enough to hold themselves up on their feet. There is the odd youtube of utterly tensed Sanchin practice that is far overdone, and cannot be good for the blood pressure. What good comes of those two extremes of "soft" and "hard" is debatable.
It has been easy for me to fall into such extremes from time to time, especially since I experiment quite a lot. I want to feel what it's like to do a 30-30-30 isometric which although I still regard as a genuine breakthrough in iso-hold protocol, I found is simply not sustainable (by me) over a long period of time, proper rest days notwithstanding. The mind-trip of a comparatively relaxed chi kung drill and what the results are from such practice. There have been unbelievable instances of "sightings" over the years (occasionally) from such "soft" practices.
It's a question of balance, really. Bob's achieved it, in my view.
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Post by Bob50 on Aug 27, 2018 0:03:22 GMT
Thank you Macky for your understanding, explanation and contribution to isometric and Qigong topics at the forum. My KSHD approach has just arisen from my previous practice of Tai Chi and Xing Yi. I have just made my performance of movements little harder to slow the lose of muscle mass.
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Post by macky on Aug 28, 2018 9:15:05 GMT
Thanks Macky , i always enjoy your insights on chi kung etc.I have experienced a few strange things like yourself so know there is a lot more going on than meets the eye. In the way of Energy , the 8 brocades is done relaxed and as a warm up for standing.In the more advanced stages , he mentions imagining you are lifting or pushing gradually increasing weights .He says to use the mind not the muscles , i guess this might lead to the relaxed strength and power you referred to , not that i've got that far. We have corresponded before , still doing the 5 Tibetans , are you still doing the swing arms exercise along with the isometrics?
You've probably already got this but you can see some of the Baduanjin movements before the standings. Also if you or anybody would like the book of Zhan Zhuang by Lam's master Yu Yong Nian pm me with your email and I'll flick it through to you.
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Post by Kubla Khan on Aug 28, 2018 14:53:18 GMT
Thanks Macky , i've seen the video's but will watch again.I also own a copy of the book ,it's a really nice book and simple is best.I've only really done the first 2 positions and often finish with them but only about 10 minutes.I wonder what a daily practice of 20 mins would do as recommended. I did a workshop in stillness/movement qigong years ago which was basically empty the mind and focus on the dantien while in the wu chi position and waiting for spontaneous movement , helped by an initiation/ blast of chi from the teacher.Some strange things happened.I think the idea is that the chi knows what's best for you if you are relaxed and open.
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Post by macky on Aug 29, 2018 21:40:41 GMT
Just for interest, some Ping Shuai (swinging arms) videos :
No need to dip as low as the lady in the vid.
This is one of a series of about a dozen with some of them interviews with scientific practitioners outlining their investigations into Ping Shuai and chi kung in general.
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TexasRanger
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Post by TexasRanger on Aug 29, 2018 22:05:08 GMT
"Swung off colon cancer"?
I think Qigong is great, but, seriously?
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Post by macky on Aug 30, 2018 9:47:44 GMT
Yes I know it's a bit much to believe. However the video parts showing the surgeon at his rooms, and in stages of his illness seem real. It's not as if he's a Swoboda turning up from nowhere trying to convince people that they can regrow limbs. If the scans of the tumour and its regression are real, then the question perhaps is "how much time between the two of them?"
There are youtubes of interviews at a much later time (12 years I think) showing him relating the same story and having put on more weight. The Master credited with the whole thing doesn't seem to be after great heaps of money.
And the bottom vid is a series of about 12 or 13 (I haven't got them all), each showing two or three persons that had serious health issues very much helped by Ping Shuai. Many of them, including the surgeon, practised swinging arms for a lot longer per day than what would be normal for general health, as much as two hours a day in some cases (in total). Half an hour a day is thought to be a reasonable time for Ping Shuai for health maintenance.
Let's not forget the change of diet to vegetarian, which may have played a big part in recovery from cancer etc. I've heard of others reverting to veges and vege juices and helping their health, reducing their disease greatly, even without chi kung of any kind.
My wife's cousin was a master builder who had a piece of cancerous colon cut out and he endured six months following the operation on chemo. A big man, his weight dropped four stone but came back after the chemo finished. He had over ten years clear but last year the cancer came back and he is pretty much on the way out now.
A family friend of ours is about the same size and age, and approx. at the same time had a piece cut out of his colon too. After the operation he was informed to start chemo. Our friend asked the doctors if they had removed the cancer, and they said they had, the op was a success. He told them no chemo and signed a waiver form. Today he is still carpet laying at 75 with no sign of cancer coming back after all these years.
So we just don't know really, do we.
The swinging arms exercise is over 50 years old actually according to Yang Jwing-ming in his Chi Kung book. I think he called it Bai Bi Yun Dong if I remember right. He also spoke of recovery from illness (not his) and general health practice.
His version that he apparently taught was the same with the arms but stepping in place. As the arms came forward the left leg steps, then the next time the arms come forward the right leg steps. It's a good exercise in itself, the steps taken to suit one's comfort, the mind on the dantien.
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Post by TexasRanger on Aug 30, 2018 10:59:08 GMT
What we do know are that medical practices in Asia are spotty at best.
Not opinion, either: I was told this when I was in Asia this spring for a couple of weeks...their claim: Asian medicine is great at preventative medicine, poor at knowledge, diagnostics and treatment of serious diseases. The technologies many parts of the 'west' offer aren't available in Asia and their meds...hmmm. I picked up an upper respiratory infection on the flight heading over (seemed the entire flight was coughing) and needed to see an MD...the meds made me sick and when I got back, I showed them to my physician here in the US and he said the drugs were banned for safety years ago.
Hence not a high level of trust/confidence in these video claims -- especially the above.
Yes, there are amazing things proactive vegan diets and fasting can offer to halt/reverse many cancers. There's the video on Amazon that demonstrates a specific heat/oxygen/diet treat has stopped Stage 4 cancers.
Surgery? Yes, it removes the cancer. But what is the root cause or trigger? That is the important factor.
Anyway, claims as noted on the videos? IMHO, they deserve questioning.
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Post by Bob50 on Aug 30, 2018 16:38:27 GMT
Thanks Macky for posting these videos. Subjectively, even 10-15 min of swing hand exercises give feeling of spinal column relaxation and opening "spinal energetic channel." Certainly, a long practice should give positive results.
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Post by macky on Aug 30, 2018 21:12:59 GMT
What we do know are that medical practices in Asia are spotty at best. Not opinion, either: I was told this when I was in Asia this spring for a couple of weeks...their claim: Asian medicine is great at preventative medicine, poor at knowledge, diagnostics and treatment of serious diseases. The technologies many parts of the 'west' offer aren't available in Asia and their meds...hmmm. I picked up an upper respiratory infection on the flight heading over (seemed the entire flight was coughing) and needed to see an MD...the meds made me sick and when I got back, I showed them to my physician here in the US and he said the drugs were banned for safety years ago. Hence not a high level of trust/confidence in these video claims -- especially the above. Yes, there are amazing things proactive vegan diets and fasting can offer to halt/reverse many cancers. There's the video on Amazon that demonstrates a specific heat/oxygen/diet treat has stopped Stage 4 cancers. Surgery? Yes, it removes the cancer. But what is the root cause or trigger? That is the important factor. Anyway, claims as noted on the videos? IMHO, they deserve questioning. Endorsed, and thank you for sharing your experiences TR. Without in depth research, I understand that there are hospitals in China that have forms of Standing postures and chi kung to aid patients, and apparently quite successful. Once again, scrutiny is advised.
But there is no doubt in my mind that despite having benefitted enormously from western medicines, where they can sensibly be avoided by chi kung-related practises then I believe that is a better way, given the many side-effects listed by said medicines. One size doesn't fit all, of course, and debates continue about the blanket 'scorched Earth' treatments of chemo-therapy for cancer etc.
In the menatime I found the video with the scientists. It may have some interest, but at least what it shows is that chi kung has now been taken seriously enough to have become a formal academic study, and the more that happens in my opinion, the less the supernatural claims and accompanying scams that only serve to diminish chi kung in the eyes of many.
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