macky
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Post by macky on Aug 30, 2018 21:40:23 GMT
Thanks Macky for posting these videos. Subjectively, even 10-15 min of swing hand exercises give feeling of spinal column relaxation and opening "spinal energetic channel." Certainly, a long practice should give positive results. Yes you're right Bob. Back in 1992-3 I attended a once-a-week class of Tai Chi taken by a Malaysian Chinese teacher of my daughter at her school.
His warm-up were two forms of swinging arms, the one you see in the videos, and another I have never been able to find on you tube or anywhere else, although similar forms exist. It is a sideways swing of the arms, the feet are placed a bit wider (some of the practitioners stood in a shallow horse stance). The arms are held up at shoulder level out to the sides and then one arm is brought across the front of the body while the other is brought across the back as the body turns. Turning from side to side at the same pace as the usual swinging arms, which because of the slight turning of the body from side to side according to which arm is in front, the arms are not "whipping" but simply swinging in the same manner, relaxed and steady. No tapping the kidneys. I've never agreed with that anyway.
I always thought the swinging arms were only a warm up and it wasn't until a few years ago that I found it was a formal discipline in itself, and had been for over 50 years.
As an aside, the teacher also taught a chi kung set called Tai Chi Chi Kung, or Shibashi 18 Movements and in 2007 I attended a class taught by a Taiwanese lady devoted exclusively to that drill set. There's plenty on Google about it. Formulated in around 1980 with elements of Tai Chi and other chi kung drills incorporated in the set, I believe it has become a national treasure in Malaysia. The lady also started the class with a few minutes of swinging arms.
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TexasRanger
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Post by TexasRanger on Aug 30, 2018 22:21:14 GMT
I'm interested in feedback from folks that live there to see what they think about the videos and the claims.
Its easy to associate some magical mysticsm with exotic sounding names with alleged results -- similar to religion. Would like to hear it from people who live there, grew up and understand the sub-cultures, etc.
Again, I saw Tai Chi or Qigong (not smart enough to recognize the difference) being practiced in the parks throughout the day, but, how is that different than people who hit the streets in the US or Europe? I know during my visits to New York City and Central Park there were probably 10 - 20x the runners. Downtown Paris? Lunch time, the buildings seemed to empty out with lean, fit men and women running around the area.
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macky
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Post by macky on Aug 30, 2018 23:20:12 GMT
Well I wouldn't compare forms of chi kung, martial or otherwise with "conventional" training such as running. Especially walking, the line between the two blurs considerably. A good walk every day is good. There are chi kung forms of walking also, that have had good results.
Running obviously has its advantages for sure, but among the elderly and not-so-well, various forms of chi kung have been found to be beneficial. How much more benefit can result from reasonably fit persons performing chi kung can only be debated, and let's face it, there's enough arguments in the isometric/weight training/calisthenics etc world without getting into debates about the benefits of chi kung vs running.
I suppose it's all about one's goals, what floats their boat, what they can and can't do, that will eventually determine what they end up liking the most (and therefore doing the most regularly).
Surprisingly perhaps, cirticism and disbelief towards chi kung is prevalent in China and Asian countries, especially among those trained in western medical practices and techniques.
The surgeon who has been one of the topics here himself said in his writings that the chi kung that was engaged in by hospital patients on cancer treatment was frowned apon by medical staff. However the results among said chi kung practitioners spoke for themselves. They were a lot more well than those that didn't do it, and had better spirits overall. How much of that was from simply engaging in moderate physical activity and/or meditative movement per se I don't know.
Whether any of those practitioners were well enough to try running I would think not. Later if their health improved enough they might have been able to take up running. But there are many accomplished trainers who have contracted cancer and their "conventional" training didn't save them.
One chappie I saw in a blog somewhere was a strong lifter and got cancer. He dropped the lifting and took up Zhan Zhuang (static chi kung postures) and the cancer went away. When he went back on the weights the cancer reappeared so he dropped the iron for good and kept on with chi kung. The cancer disappeared again.
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TexasRanger
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Post by TexasRanger on Aug 31, 2018 0:03:10 GMT
Well I wouldn't compare forms of chi kung, martial or otherwise with "conventional" training such as running. Especially walking, the line between the two blurs considerably. A good walk every day is good. There are chi kung forms of walking also, that have had good results. (1)
Surprisingly perhaps, cirticism and disbelief towards chi kung is prevalent in China and Asian countries, especially among those trained in western medical practices and techniques. (2)
The surgeon who has been one of the topics here himself said in his writings that the chi kung that was engaged in by hospital patients on cancer treatment was frowned apon by medical staff. However the results among said chi kung practitioners spoke for themselves. They were a lot more well than those that didn't do it, and had better spirits overall. How much of that was from simply engaging in moderate physical activity and/or meditative movement per se I don't know. (3)
Whether any of those practitioners were well enough to try running I would think not. Later if their health improved enough they might have been able to take up running. But there are many accomplished trainers who have contracted cancer and their "conventional" training didn't save them. (4)
One chappie I saw in a blog somewhere was a strong lifter and got cancer. He dropped the lifting and took up Zhan Zhuang (static chi kung postures) and the cancer went away. When he went back on the weights the cancer reappeared so he dropped the iron for good and kept on with chi kung. The cancer disappeared again. (5) (1) Running is an inherently natural part of our ancestral heritage, survival. Humans are the elite endurance land animal, more efficient than any other land animal at dissipating heat and our bipedal design allows for the most efficient endurance creature cerated. Science also states running causes a cascade of positive hormonal responses, your body develops a series of enzymes that assist with fat burning, etc. Hardly "conventional"... (catching my breath before moving on...) (2) Well, is it criticism or questioning the objectivity of the claims? Like any long held beliefs, I don't think there's anything that isn't being scrutinized and hey, if it holds up to objective analysis, then there you go. In the case of this stuff, turning on the BS meter never hurts. (3) And how is this documented? You've got PubMed...The Lancet...tons of places to publish peer-reviewed research, studies, etc. So where is it? (BTW, I just did a couple of searches and couldn't find anything which substantiates the claims.) (4) I don't think anyone has claimed exercise cures cancer. Running? Maybe Yoga? May help prevent it...we know when the body heats up and you're in an aerobic state, cancer cells don't hang well. Which is a big reason, as I understand, the clinics in Germany, for example, are doing so well since their focus in on heat, cranking up the O2 in the body and nearly a pure vegan diet. (5) Lots and lots of tales everywhere on the internet, my friend. Like Joe Weider was a kind, loving and honest business man. How about the one where there's a magic exercise book and belt appearing on the market on September 1 that will revolutionize the fitness world. Or these wacky stories about some 9/11 conspiracy...see what I mean? They're EVERYWHERE!! But "postures" causing cancer to go into remission? Hmm. Did I tell you about seeing unicorns?
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macky
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Post by macky on Aug 31, 2018 0:48:59 GMT
TR, there's no argument from me about the benefits of running or any other "conventional" exercise. I used the term "conventional" as a referrence to non-chi kung physical and mental disciplines.
I am also not arguing which is better, chi kung or running. You have changed all this discussion into a debate which I have never started. And bringing in other unrelated topics that we have debated in the past is irrelevant.
Chi kung simply means 'energy work'. The life force is at the fore as a concentration focus of the Mind. Whatever physical actions or stances after that is only style.
There have been cases of Chinese Tai Chi practitioners learning one after another style of Tai Chi because they didn't achieve anything in the way of tangible concious energy development. They were never told that it all begins with an awareness and focus on the lower dantien.
By comparing running with chi kung you don't seem to have an appreciation of what chi kung really is, and why I say that it is irrelevant to compare the two. They are different disciplines and your undoubtedly expert experience with running does not give you any idea of what chi kung practice means.
Chi kung ultimately is a personal experience. Not scientific physiology. Of course there may be a bit of that, but ultimately the Mind-clutter has to go during the practise otherwise you are simply performing "conventional" exercise, certainly beneficial but not chi kung.
In fact, one doesn't need ANY physical activity to perform chi kung, it can be done sitting without movement. I've done things with chi kung that cannot be confirmed with science, therefore I cannot prove them.
At the end of the day, it is Mind that is paramount, both in science and in chi kung. The techniques and visualizations are different. Those that try to use science to prove something which science is not currently fit to prove is futile.
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TexasRanger
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Post by TexasRanger on Aug 31, 2018 1:24:05 GMT
TR, there's no argument from me about the benefits of running or any other "conventional" exercise. I used the term "conventional" as a referrence to non-chi kung physical and mental disciplines.
I am also not arguing which is better, chi kung or running. You have changed all this discussion into a debate which I have never started. And bringing in other unrelated topics that we have debated in the past is irrelevant.
Chi kung simply means 'energy work'. The life force is at the fore as a concentration focus of the Mind. Whatever physical actions or stances after that is only style.
There have been cases of Chinese Tai Chi practitioners learning one after another style of Tai Chi because they didn't achieve anything in the way of tangible concious energy development. They were never told that it all begins with an awareness and focus on the lower dantien.
By comparing running with chi kung you don't seem to have an appreciation of what chi kung really is, and why I say that it is irrelevant to compare the two. They are different disciplines and your undoubtedly expert experience with running does not give you any idea of what chi kung practice means.
Chi kung ultimately is a personal experience. Not scientific physiology. Of course there may be a bit of that, but ultimately the Mind-clutter has to go during the practise otherwise you are simply performing "conventional" exercise, certainly beneficial but not chi kung.
In fact, one doesn't need ANY physical activity to perform chi kung, it can be done sitting without movement. I've done things with chi kung that cannot be confirmed with science, therefore I cannot prove them.
At the end of the day, it is Mind that is paramount, both in science and in chi kung. The techniques and visualizations are different. Those that try to use science to prove something which science is not currently fit to prove is futile.
No Macky, I didn't change from CK Qigong to running...I was showing a comparison that people practice all kinds of exercise. Some has a lot of mysticsm and alleged ancient wisdom embedded in it, yet, no objective validation. Running, science has shown, a zillion benefits from head to toe to include objective mental benefits. Sure, you can visualize good workout and yes, it takes a conscious effort to get off the couch and go for a run or do your chi kung Qigong. But, at the end of the day it is the execution hence it is the real and the physical... it is muscles contracting in response to your nervous system, hormones responding in accordance with our ancestral genetics. I can run, workout or whatever when I'm not feeling good and willing to embrace the suck as the saying goes, or, if I'm fired up and ready to enjoy a run or walking or grab the iron. You should understand all of that since you lifted...all the same. As mentioned, I've got a some Qigong workouts and if your thing is to get into the quasi-religious, mystic spin, well, enjoy. But at the end of the day, you're simply doing a series of exercises that provide some poses, dynamic tension (per the Qigong instructor) and work up a light sweat. And yes, science can validate things. The ability to analyze bloodwork, muscle composition, how parts of the brain work to certain stimulus is pretty incredible. "Those that try to use science to prove something which science is not currently fit to prove is futile. " Sounds like the argument we hear from the religious fanatics. Like I said, next trip to Asia, will have to ask. It occurred to me this is much like the mystical claims associated with Yoga (which fortunately, the Indian government worked to shut down in the 1800s) when it was originally just a bunch of contortionists and beggars prior to the adoption of western gymnastic methods. Unfortunately, the Yogi nonsense did live on and of course found a new following in gullible idealists like Hollywood in the early 1900s, the hippies in the 1960s and Gordon Anderson.
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macky
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Post by macky on Aug 31, 2018 1:49:51 GMT
Nothing about what you've just said is chi kung practice. You obviously have never got into it. "quasi-religious, mystic spin," may be true in some quarters but there are doctors and scientists who enjoy proper chi kung for what it is, never mind people who read scientific articles in journals.
Like I said, chi kung is a personal experience not subject (at present ) to scientific enquiry as such, although in the last video I presented, scientific enquiry was certainly employed to try and uncover mysteries not previosly explained.
If you need to travel to the Far East in order to "prove" to yourself the validity of chi kung, then you are travelling in the wrong direction and wasting your time and money.
The answers lay within you, not in some exotic country where much of what you view may be mere illusion, put on for the tourists but nowhere authentic in any shape of form.
Robert Smith found that out very early in the peace.
Try chi kung out for yourself. I mean the real stuff, the simple stuff. Get yourself a decent book on some aspect of chi kung and give it a sincere try. When you get some results then come back and talk about chi kung from experience not from belief only, based on another illogical belief that nothing exists if science has not proved it.
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Bob50
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Post by Bob50 on Aug 31, 2018 4:39:31 GMT
Simple test. Close your eyes, lift up you hands above the head with slightly relaxed fingers in vertical position. Slightly curl the ringer and baby fingers and you will feel some descending "flow" from your thumb, index and middle fingers along your forearms to the frontal part of the body. Then straighten ringer, middle, and baby fingers without tension and touch only thumb and index fingers on both hands, and you will feel "flow" from your middle, ringer and baby fingers to your back. Repeat several times, and you will feel clear difference in feelings. I will not refer to brain/nerve regulation, Qi-energy, or something others. Just feel the difference. Now you can drive these descending feelings ("flows").
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Post by Kubla Khan on Aug 31, 2018 6:58:28 GMT
Running is great , so is chi kung. A number of people , this board included , can no longer run due to dodgy knees etc.
Bagua is an internal art as is tai chi , and so a form of chi kung. While unsure about the age claims ,this gentleman is clearly getting on in years.
Macky , 20 years from now.
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Bob50
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Post by Bob50 on Aug 31, 2018 7:33:30 GMT
Simple and very effective internal style - Xing Yi Quan
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macky
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Post by macky on Aug 31, 2018 8:03:19 GMT
Running is great , so is chi kung. A number of people , this board included , can no longer run due to dodgy knees etc. Bagua is an internal art as is tai chi , and so a form of chi kung. While unsure about the age claims ,this gentleman is clearly getting on in years. Macky , 20 years from now. Hehe I'll be 90, should I be so lucky.....
I posted some time ago on Sierra (or the old board) about my experiences with Pakua Chang in 1980. I had waited for 18 months for the book to arrive, ordered by a bookshop in South Auckland. Pakua was unknown in NZ then, and the circling method as outlined in Robert Smith's book was by far one of the toughest (if not THE toughest) mind/body exercise I had ever done, then or since. It might have been internal, with the mind on the dantien to stop the wobbling, but sweat drenched my clothes after a short time and after finishing at about 35 minutes I was done.
The next day upon waking I felt like I had been hit by a truck, but at the same time the nerves were strangely soothed. In actual fact I had to stop after about a month my whole self was changing and my wife noticed it and felt uncomfortable. I could walk up the road and catch someone looking at me from 50 yards away by simply looking around directly at them. No wonder it is said that a Pakua master cannot be sneaked up on. The arms felt powerful in a "different" way than calisthenics or weights.
I can only speculate what I might have been like after the recommended one hour a day for a year.
Like other forms of chi kung, it's not something you can "prove", you have to experience it.
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Post by Kubla Khan on Aug 31, 2018 8:30:59 GMT
Interesting report Macky , and also that you stopped and chose to remain more "grounded"
Never done Bagua , but had a very brief circle walking experience at a previously mentioned workshop.Don't think it was Bagua , maybe some shamanic thing.Walking in a circle , both direcions and a very small movement with the hands as if you were pulling aside a very small pair of curtains from in front of you eyes , felt pretty ridiculous at first but i cast that aside and just did it.Only about 15 minutes but went a strange state , bit of a trance but hyper aware.
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TexasRanger
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Post by TexasRanger on Aug 31, 2018 20:42:21 GMT
Nothing about what you've just said is chi kung practice. You obviously have never got into it. "quasi-religious, mystic spin," may be true in some quarters but there are doctors and scientists who enjoy proper chi kung for what it is, never mind people who read scientific articles in journals.
Like I said, chi kung is a personal experience not subject (at present ) to scientific enquiry as such, although in the last video I presented, scientific enquiry was certainly employed to try and uncover mysteries not previosly explained.
If you need to travel to the Far East in order to "prove" to yourself the validity of chi kung, then you are travelling in the wrong direction and wasting your time and money.
The answers lay within you, not in some exotic country where much of what you view may be mere illusion, put on for the tourists but nowhere authentic in any shape of form.
Robert Smith found that out very early in the peace.
Try chi kung out for yourself. I mean the real stuff, the simple stuff. Get yourself a decent book on some aspect of chi kung and give it a sincere try. When you get some results then come back and talk about chi kung from experience not from belief only, based on another illogical belief that nothing exists if science has not proved it.
Are you sure this isn't Gordon Anderson? Aka "The Gourd"? Aka "Andy62"? All of this stuff is explained in the same fashion as: "Nerve Force" "The Secret" ...just saying' "Illogical belief"--? According to someone espousing the same philosophies as the Gourd? Macky, please! So I guess that applies as to why 9/11 conspiracy theories are acceptable? LOLOL! Or religious claims like Jonah being swallowed by the whale are ok even thought there is no science behind it? I'm tracking with you now!! Call me my friend, we have much to discuss! Regardless, I was told (very) early this morning: "Chi kung is Qigong...same thing. If you have Qigong you have Chi Kung." So, that is straight from China. So, there you go...as I've noted multiple times, I do have Qigong videos and a pretty thick book (see below) from the dude with the sharp hair cut. Nice try Macky, but, like I said been there and tried it...
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macky
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Post by macky on Aug 31, 2018 21:52:46 GMT
Nothing about what you've just said is chi kung practice. You obviously have never got into it. "quasi-religious, mystic spin," may be true in some quarters but there are doctors and scientists who enjoy proper chi kung for what it is, never mind people who read scientific articles in journals.
Like I said, chi kung is a personal experience not subject (at present ) to scientific enquiry as such, although in the last video I presented, scientific enquiry was certainly employed to try and uncover mysteries not previosly explained.
If you need to travel to the Far East in order to "prove" to yourself the validity of chi kung, then you are travelling in the wrong direction and wasting your time and money.
The answers lay within you, not in some exotic country where much of what you view may be mere illusion, put on for the tourists but nowhere authentic in any shape of form.
Robert Smith found that out very early in the peace.
Try chi kung out for yourself. I mean the real stuff, the simple stuff. Get yourself a decent book on some aspect of chi kung and give it a sincere try. When you get some results then come back and talk about chi kung from experience not from belief only, based on another illogical belief that nothing exists if science has not proved it.
Are you sure this isn't Gordon Anderson? Aka "The Gourd"? Aka "Andy62"? All of this stuff is explained in the same fashion as: "Nerve Force" "The Secret" ...just saying' "Illogical belief"--? According to someone espousing the same philosophies as the Gourd? Macky, please! So I guess that applies as to why 9/11 conspiracy theories are acceptable? LOLOL! Or religious claims like Jonah being swallowed by the whale are ok even thought there is no science behind it? I'm tracking with you now!! Call me my friend, we have much to discuss! Regardless, I was told (very) early this morning: "Chi kung is Qigong...same thing. If you have Qigong you have Chi Kung." So, that is straight from China. So, there you go...as I've noted multiple times, I do have Qigong videos and a pretty thick book (see below) from the dude with the sharp hair cut. Nice try Macky, but, like I said been there and tried it... Firstly, the belief that "nothing exists if science hasn't proved it" is illogical for more than one reason. 1. Science continues to find that the more it finds out, the more there is to find out. It is not a closed system of knowledge, so if something is not known by science, that doesn't necessarily means it doesn't exist. 2. The history of science is filled with erroneous statements by scientists that "something" is impossible, or that there "will never be any use for it" etc etc etc . If I had gone around in 1900 stating that one day less than 70 years into the future man will have walked on the Moon, and that there will be 250 ton aircraft flying through the air at 30,000 feet at 500+ mph I would have been chucked into the looney bin. The attitude that everything depends in science for its authenticity is itself merely a belief. In some quarters said belief approaches religiosity. 3. At the end of the day, science (as we know it) is not the all and end-all. The Mind is. It is the Mind that constructed the tenets of science in order to bring natural laws and processes into the understanding of the Mind. Science is a construction of the Mind, often using another Mind-construction, mathematics. Science is not some primordial Universal Truth stumbled over by Mankind in his evolution. It is a Mind-construct. Therefore what is not understood by science is not necessarily untrue, or non-existent.
I spell qigong as chi kung, usually. They are the same and both are valid spellings. No argument.
Since you bring your pet religious belief of the Official Story of 9-11 into the picture again I will explain from your "scientific" point of view that the alleged perpetrators of 9-11 were NEVER identified by science (DNA). I'm still waiting for your explanation of how you are convinced that those 19 named by the FBI as SUSPECTS are true, by simply watching a plane hurtle into a building "and people die". I have placed before you FBI and DOJ files that clearly contradict the Official Story of 9-11. You've ignored them. Once again I will state that I've never made any conspiracy theory, and your continued insistence on that, along with absence of any evidence for your position marks you as one whose views of 9-11 (as to who the perps were) border on religious fanaticism. Other subjects we've debated related to American history and Nazi participation in the American space program confirm it.
Owning and reading a book on Shaolin chi kung is not evidence for you being a chi kung practitioner. Your statements in your posts so far would indicate that you still haven't grasped the basic concept of chi kung principles no matter how many books you own and people you "speak to in China" (as if that was any proof).
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macky
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Post by macky on Aug 31, 2018 22:05:41 GMT
Chen style Taijiquan
I practiced this form for 10 years or so then dropped some forms as I was doing to many, kept Wu style 108 and Chen Man-Chings 37 Yang. I still do sword and sabre. Nice job Henry. Some masters in their personal training have returned to a few favorite movements/postures for the rest of their lives. Paul Kuo in Robert Smith's book Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods despite well very well trained in Pakua and Hsing I kept on only with walking the circle performing the single and double change, and Wong Kiew Kit cites Lifting the Sky as his favorite and performing it well above anything else. Others seem to have a single favorite Zhan Zhuang stance, if the you tubes and comments are anything to go by.
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