One Set to Failure

[Mr Average]

Oct 14, 2017 20:29:16 GMT BigBruvOfEnglandUK said:

I suppose you want to know if he's got a calendar coming out for 2018?

[mr potatohead]

Oct 14, 2017 20:41:54 GMT TexasRanger said:

Oct 14, 2017 20:29:16 GMT BigBruvOfEnglandUK said:

I suppose you want to know if he's got a calendar coming out for 2018?

I'm getting JP's...it is supposed to have special dates highlighted by Doc Moore in pink shorts.

An instant classic!

[trog]

One point that I've never understood with on set to failure, is the failure point. Perhaps it depends on the exercise. Take my favourite exercise, pull-ups. My workout starts with sets 8 pull-ups (which I find work better for me than 10s). I keep doing them, although the last couple of sets are 7s, until I've done 60-70. The first four sets, are supersetted with dips, overhead press or trciept extensions, depending on how I feel. If I really try hard, I can do 12 or 13 pull-ups as a first set (that would be failure), but after a rest of 10 seconds, I can do a set of 7 or 8. In my case, the limiting factor in pull-ups is my grip, which runs out way before my shoulders.

In the case of pull-ups, I don't think I would gain anything with one set to failure, but I might in other exercises.

I've never adhered to the 3 set/10 rep "rule".  I tend to do for 4 sets and 7/8 reps if the weight is heavy and 12/14 if light. If I can go over 14, then it's time to up the weight, as I find my form slips due to lack of concentration.

[Mr Average]

Well I have always got confused on the failure bit, the exercise routine I did and still have from the 80s stated momentary muscle failure. So even after your workout you can still walk and lift your arms etc.. Total muscle failure is what I have seen happen to runners some times and they no muscle control and have to be virtually carried across the finish line.

[mr potatohead]

"Momentary muscle failure" is the way I've always heard Steve Maxwell refer to it. Exercising muscles to failure doesn't even sound healthy to me. I'm guessing that the way I exercise is to stop even before momentary muscle failure. Not always easy to determine though. The first feeling of a burn or ache coming on seems to be a good indication and might be a little bit too long unless I stop immediately. I try to do what I've heard Pete Wagner mention - stop before the burn. If I go too long, I'll be too sore to do it again tomorrow. It seems to take a bit of a knack to find that "time to stop" feeling.

Stopping an exercise at the right time also allows me to do the exercise again later the same day or even multiple time in a day, depending on variables.

Using no rep as rep. Having no set as set. Using no duration as duration. Having no plan as plan.
Setting myself up for success every time a'la Clarence Bass.

[TexasRanger]

When I was in DeLand, FL, at Nautilus the trainers told me training to failure was when you could not move the weight forward in good form. Any change in your form to assist the movement of the weight, you've hit failure. So, my arms shaking like crazy in the SuperSlow gym even though the weight was still moving forward per the trainer meant I had not hit failure. And it doesn't matter at what point you can't move their weight.

There are lots of ideas floating around regarding failure that have floated around since Nautilus' teams via Jones published his principles in Ironman. The original definition seems the most usable, but, it may not work for some. There's been a lot of talk about leaving a little in the tank to allow for better recovery, etc. Whatever works best for you.

[mr potatohead]

SuperSlow isn't done every day, is it TR? At least, that was my impression - that it takes longer to recover from an SS session and not to be done every day or multiple times in a day?

[BigBruvOfEnglandUK]

I don't want to train every day or even several times per week. I train once per week on a Saturday morning, to failure.
If I didn't work or did a much less physical job then I might not train to failure and I would exercise more often.

[Bruce Tackett]

Oct 14, 2017 22:46:07 GMT trog said:

One point that I've never understood with on set to failure, is the failure point. Perhaps it depends on the exercise. Take my favourite exercise, pull-ups. My workout starts with sets 8 pull-ups (which I find work better for me than 10s). I keep doing them, although the last couple of sets are 7s, until I've done 60-70. The first four sets, are supersetted with dips, overhead press or trciept extensions, depending on how I feel. If I really try hard, I can do 12 or 13 pull-ups as a first set (that would be failure), but after a rest of 10 seconds, I can do a set of 7 or 8. In my case, the limiting factor in pull-ups is my grip, which runs out way before my shoulders.

In the case of pull-ups, I don't think I would gain anything with one set to failure, but I might in other exercises.

I've never adhered to the 3 set/10 rep "rule".  I tend to do for 4 sets and 7/8 reps if the weight is heavy and 12/14 if light. If I can go over 14, then it's time to up the weight, as I find my form slips due to lack of concentration.

I train one set to failure, but not for BW exercises. I've always done a set number, a bit less than I would be able to do to failure, and then added to that number as I'm able to.

[countryboy]

I like the "ab Wheel Rollout" exercise. In my exercise room I have marked it out so I know how far I am stretching. From a standing position I do 3-4 rollouts to 4 feet, and then move a little further out with each rep until I hit my max. I guess you could say I am doing one set to failure (or shall I say...near failure, since I am still a few inches away from being able to fully extend)

I think this is a really good full body exercise, and extending my reach little by little in one set, I come out feeling like my whole body has been fully worked in a single set, to failure. Doing it this way is like doing sets and adding a little weight to each set.

I have heard it said that doing an exercise to failure is like training the body and mind to fail. (I think Gordon Anderson said this.) That doesn't make sense at all. Aside from possible injury, training to failure is simply a measuring point from where you set your next highest goal.

[Bruce Tackett]

Again, it is the negative connotation of the word "failure" that can make this protocol sound unappealing to some. As in the case of Gordon Anderson who transposes the word into his fantasy world. I prefer to think of it as simply doing as many reps as I can. And, again, my reasoning is, why stop at ten reps and then do it again, when you can go past 10 reps and do as many you can? And then once you've done that and thoroughly fatigued the muscle, there's no reason to repeat it.

[Deleted]

From a strength building point of view, I have always found avoiding failure is far better.

[Bruce Tackett]

Oct 16, 2017 15:42:52 GMT whiffet said:

From a strength building point of view, I have always found avoiding failure is far better.

[Bob50]

It is not a secret that there are two types of failures: the failure when our muscles cannot contract, i.e. we cannot perform a next movement and the failure when we stop exercises because we cannot tolerate burning/pain in our muscles, although we can perform several reps more. First type of failure is common for high loading and small number reps, whereas the second type is associated with small loading and high number reps or long muscle isometric contraction. Both failures are used in training to gain muscles, strength and endurance.

I would like to make the quotation of my two last posts on Greg’s forum. These posts were devoted to static-dynamic method of training that is based on the second type of failure. This method may be interested for older people who cannot afford heavy loading. I do not know when Greg’s forum will be active again, and can he keep all info at new forum; therefore, I do it.

“Static-Dynamic Method (SD) is not a very correct name because static and dynamic exclude each over. However, it means that a student keeps the isometric tension in his muscles all the time when he performs the partial movements inside the full range of moving. He does not relax muscles in a set. This “static” tension prevents the blood stream to the muscles and creates corresponding anaerobic biochemical background that stimulates the gain of muscles and strength. I think you remember a method when guys wrapped their limbs with bands to prevent the blood stream through their muscles to stimulate hypertrophy. SD method acts similar. An important moment is that, using SD, we should perform 30-45 sec sets (number reps in sets is not important) to get burning/ pain in a working muscle. If after first set we did not get this burning/pain, we should perform the second set after 20-30 sec rest and sometimes even third set to get clear burning/pain feeling. Usually 3 sets are more than enough. Pain in the muscles creates biochemical stress that stimulates secretion of hormones. Hormones, in their turn, move to muscle cells and stimulate their growth. This is a short description of SD method.”


Hormones and training: what you need to know
rebel-performance.com/hormones-training-need-know/

This is very interesting long since-like paper; therefore, I made a short quotation that directly devotes to the practical aspects of static-dynamic (stato-dynamic) method.

The stato-dynamic effort method uses loads of approximately 50% or less, and witnesses the participant moving the load at slow velocities. 2 to 4 second eccentric and concentric motions are typically used for this method. The low load and slow tempo makes this approach target the slow twitch fibers due to the very low forces. While the force variable is low, the duration of the set should be large. Slow twitch fibers are easy to recruit, but difficult to fatigue, and the longer duration sets are ideal for setting the stage to turn these slow twitch fibers into target cells. Sets are typically performed for 40 to 60 seconds, and participants can build up to performing multiple rounds of 3 to 5 sets. Typically the rest period is kept in a 1 to 1 ratio with the work duration.
The stato-dynamic effort method fits into the broader category of occlusion based training approaches. Occlusion techniques were made popular by the Japanese, Katso approach, also called Blood Flow Restricted Training (BFR). The overall findings from the various protocols that have been used in BFR approaches is that a substantial increase in growth hormone is typically seen, even when loads of approximately 30% 1RM are used. The thought behind this approach is that occlusion of venous vessels prevents the removal of metabolic byproducts from the local tissue area for an extended period of time, creating a larger than normal level of waste products and heat trapped in the blood that cannot escape until the occlusion is released. Once the occlusion is released, the blood that is loaded with waste products ultimately is circulated back to central regions, such as the heart and neck. Chemoreceptors in the carotid body and arch of the aorta register the high concentrations of metabolic byproducts in the blood, send an afferent signal to the nucleus tractus solitarius, which relays the message to the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus perceives the internal environment of the body to be one that would threaten homeostasis. The hypothalamus then begins a signaling cascade to the anterior pituitary that unleashes a potent growth hormone pulse.
The stato-dynamic effort method asks the participant to never completely lock out the joints during performance of the tempo based exercise. Such an approach keeps the muscle tissue actively creating tension throughout the time period that the exercise is being performed. When muscle tissue is actively creating tension, it mechanically compresses the blood vessels that supply and drain the tissue, thus creating an occlusal effect. Eventually the set ends, and the occluded blood is sent back into circulation, leading to the mechanism of hormonal signaling described in the previous paragraph. Since only the slow twitch muscle was recruited and fatigued with this approach, only the slow twitch tissue is the target cell for the hormonal cascade.

Interestingly, some authors also report if athletes increase loading during stato-dynamic exercises up to 70-80% RM and decrease time under tension to 30-45 sec, they could also train fast twitch fibers in addition to slow twitch ones.”

P.S. I use SD method when I perform co-contraction exercises, and when I train with a stick. I can say that pumping and feelings in muscles are very strong after that. This method can be easily adapted for any self-resistance training. If we can voluntary regulate and keep tension in our muscles, we can perform full range movements in the SD manner.

[gruntbrain]

Another approach to the failure theme : once you've reached apparent failure lessen the resistance ( remove weight plates or resistance bands, alter your body's position with a suspension device, ...) and keep exercising . Continue as long as you can tolerate without destroying yourself .