Squatting Myth

[Michael]

Jul 21, 2018 8:12:42 GMT jonrock said:

Macky, I agree, TSC isos tire me in a different way from weights, sabdbags and bodyweight work. It is hard to describe, I feel sorer 2 days after the workout, then the third or fourth day I am able to train hard again.

     Jonrock, are You so tired that You feel burned out? Are You able to do something physical after a workout or a day later? 

[macky]

Jul 21, 2018 11:15:03 GMT Michael said:

Jul 21, 2018 7:59:03 GMT macky said:

May I butt in Michael ? If you get into doing 30-30-30 isometrics, don't expect to be able to do them straight away for the full 90 seconds on each exercise.  It's only my own experience here, but I find that some days I just can't do the whole 90, but still do the first two 30's as per usual, then try to extend the time out on the last 30 until you are finally getting the lot.

But that is on "big" exercises as per Drew's course, the classic weight training drills such as squat, "bench", press, row etc.  ( I do mostly some of the Monks' plus one or two others using the 30-30-30 and 20-20-20 lately.)  

When it comes to exercises for the neck or weaker areas that need rehab, or simply strengthening up until ready for the 30-30-30, then 20-20-20 is a good compromise. You'll still get a good workout from it.  As I said, 20-20-20 along that same protocol feels harder than 60 seconds straight max hold, for some reason. 

If you compile say about 8 exercises for your workout that cover most of the body, and knock off one set each, I'm pretty sure you won't be doing much else for that day, or the next.

With the 30-30-30 protocol, I felt that I had been back on the weights the next day, not sore but tight and "compact". It's a different feeling from all the other hold times that I've ever done.  But I was still quite tired all day.

Also yet another confirmation that there is so much in isometrics alone to investigate, that one could keep occupied for a very long time.

And in my opinion,  should you follow the 30-30-30 for each exercise, then I would leave the 3-position protocol alone altogether for more than one reason.  Firstly, you will be tired after the 30-30-30 unless you are used to that hold time and progression.  Secondly,  doing further isometrics, AND in 3-positions will not give you a chance to gauge your progress as to which it is that is most beneficial, or at least having the most effect on you.   Does that make sense ?     

     Thank You Macky! Honestly I should know this from my past experience with isometrics but Your reminder is appreciated. Yeah You can get burned out doing to much intensity on isometrics. It's happened to me in the past. Definetly will take Your advice when I do try this. I don't understand fully your reason for not experimenting with 3 point isometrics? I have done all my isometrics with the 3 point protocol in the past. My thing was to do a recent experiment with them again. I wouldn't be doing it at the same time.

The main reason why I have not done 3-position iso's is because I was experimenting with increasingly longer hold times well before I was wised up by Silverlooks to the 30-30-30 protocol.  A few years back I spent 10 months on isometrics only training and it was then that I was occupied extending the hold times out to 60 full effort,  and 90 or 100 seconds about a perceived 70%.

In addition, I was and still do some 4 or 8 second pulses (8 seconds full max, 8 seconds relax) to mix things up from time to time, and/or 20 seconds on/20 seconds off for five sets for a change.

It's a good way to have a break from severe long holds while still knocking off an iso-workout. 

Because of all of the above, I simply didn't have time nor felt the need to try out the 3 positions. I was getting through between 50 and 60 sets in a workout. And because I get asthma, I wait until the breathing gets back to normal before I get into my next hold. Of course, steady-as-possible breathing throughout the hold is essential, asthma or not. It keeps the blood pressure down.  But I will certainly get around to 3-position though at some stage fairly soon,  but it will not be with 30-30-30 holds because it simply won't be effective.  Not for me anyway.

When I tried my first 30-30-30 on a chest push-in on a 8" wide doorframe,  I managed to hold the full 90.  I then tried it again after a couple minutes but there was nothing there.  Maybe others will be able to benefit from it, but that convinced me that the one-position hold for the 30-30-30 was quite enough.

For me at least, to start on the 3-position regime, I believe I would have to do something like three 30 or 40 second straight holds.  I was doing two or three sets of 30 seconds at one stage single position anyway, so it shouldn't be too hard. 

One other thing I have noticed is that when I'm not really feeling up to max hold on the day, then simply holding the usual exercise for say 70 or 80 seconds straight, at just under max still gives a decent workout. It's the sort of thing that someone with iffy joints or a beginner might try, as well.  You don't always have to go full-out on overcoming isometrics. 

[Michael]

I would never attempt the 30-30-30 protocol with 3 point isometrics. That would be crazy, I'd be in a coma, . When I do three point Isometrics I pretty much do what You mentioned up top. Either longer holds, shorter holds or pulses. When I do shorter or longer holds I don't count seconds, I count my breaths. I once timed my breath for isometrics which took 10 seconds. That's inhale and exhale. Being that I can't count over 10,, counting breaths is less counting plus it gives me an estimate on how long I do them. Also, with less counting I can concentrate more on my breathing and the muscle being worked.

One thing I noticed people mention is, that it makes their joints feel better or it's better on their joints. I seem to feel better when doing movement exercise than if I'm on a steady diet of isometrics. I think I heard Bruce mention this in the past but could be wrong. Do You think this just a matter of what a person does in his everyday life? Work, lesuire, ect...?

By the way Macky, always good information from You Thanks!

[jonrock]

Jul 21, 2018 11:18:05 GMT Michael said:

Jul 21, 2018 8:12:42 GMT jonrock said:

Macky, I agree, TSC isos tire me in a different way from weights, sabdbags and bodyweight work. It is hard to describe, I feel sorer 2 days after the workout, then the third or fourth day I am able to train hard again.

     Jonrock, are You so tired that You feel burned out? Are You able to do something physical after a workout or a day later? 

Michael, right after a workout I feel powerful, a few hours later I start feeling a bit tired.
Yes, I am able to do things like lifting bags, pullups, dips, etc for the next 2 days, but until the third day I can't train TSC 20-20-20 to the absolute limit.
Take into account that I go to the limit ala Arthur Jones, if I don't exert full effort I force myself to repeat the set...so, one set, one position, to the limit, contraction in 3 phases progressively harder, 8-9 exercises which I alternate between workouts, full body.
I am stronger lifting the sandbag, doing calisthenics, overall bigger and denser and even my conditioning has gone up since training this way.

[mr potatohead]

Jul 21, 2018 7:59:03 GMT macky said:

Jul 21, 2018 0:04:38 GMT Michael said:

Bruce I think I'm going to do a 4-6 week experiment first with the 30-30-30 one point isometrics. Than I'm going to do the 3 point isometrics for 4-6 weeks. I'd like to compare them for myself. I'll do this after Thanksgiving because that's when I can experiment with stuff that I'm not sure about. It's my slow time at work. Here's a question for You. If someone experiments with two differant things like this, how much time apart should they do the next experiment? What I mean is, after the 30-30-30 should I go right into the 3 point or wait a week or two?

May I butt in Michael ? If you get into doing 30-30-30 isometrics, don't expect to be able to do them straight away for the full 90 seconds on each exercise.  It's only my own experience here, but I find that some days I just can't do the whole 90, but still do the first two 30's as per usual, then try to extend the time out on the last 30 until you are finally getting the lot.

But that is on "big" exercises as per Drew's course, the classic weight training drills such as squat, "bench", press, row etc.  ( I do mostly some of the Monks' plus one or two others using the 30-30-30 and 20-20-20 lately.)  

When it comes to exercises for the neck or weaker areas that need rehab, or simply strengthening up until ready for the 30-30-30, then 20-20-20 is a good compromise. You'll still get a good workout from it.  As I said, 20-20-20 along that same protocol feels harder than 60 seconds straight max hold, for some reason. 

If you compile say about 8 exercises for your workout that cover most of the body, and knock off one set each, I'm pretty sure you won't be doing much else for that day, or the next.

With the 30-30-30 protocol, I felt that I had been back on the weights the next day, not sore but tight and "compact". It's a different feeling from all the other hold times that I've ever done.  But I was still quite tired all day.

Also yet another confirmation that there is so much in isometrics alone to investigate, that one could keep occupied for a very long time.

And in my opinion,  should you follow the 30-30-30 for each exercise, then I would leave the 3-position protocol alone altogether for more than one reason.  Firstly, you will be tired after the 30-30-30 unless you are used to that hold time and progression.  Secondly,  doing further isometrics, AND in 3-positions will not give you a chance to gauge your progress as to which it is that is most beneficial, or at least having the most effect on you.   Does that make sense ?     

Another possibility - (& I'm fairly confident that this would be the case for me) - is that, if a person is starting out with more than one position for multiple total contractions on each exercise, they will (sub-consciously?) back off on the tension of each effort in order to facilitate and allow their body to reach their pre-planned number of sets, reps and all of that BS. This means that, instead of one 15-15-15 or 20-20-20 or 30-30-30 (or whatever) effort at the estimated intensity and then done, their exercise session will go on and on, so they end up with much more time spent on beating shit out of themselves, and likely, much greater soreness, requiring much longer recovery. Doesn't make much sense to me.
Just my opinion.

[Michael]

My isometrics training usually took around 10-15 minutes with 3 point isometrics depending on the hold time. I pick one exercise per body part which would be 6-8 exercises. It would be the same amount of contractions or time as if you were doing the one point isometrics again depending on Your hold time. It could even be less time training if You're doing 7-10 second contractions. Here's an example of something I've done with Bruce's belt:
30 seconds or what I use 3 breaths in each point: 30-30-30
1) Chest Pull Apart
2) Seated Row
3) Press
4) Curl
5) Tricep Overhead Extension
6) Squat

[macky]

Well for me, the workouts a few years ago took over an hour, not because so much of the quantity, but because of me waiting until the breathing settles until the next hold, instead of firing into it while still half panting.

Not only that, but they were and still are relatively casual from a time point of view, because I'm often doing something else such as posting into here or wherever while doing my iso's.

Everybody has different circumstances and if I want a quick round so I can get out downtown then maybe five drills for as short a time as possible will be the go. But on a day like today for example where I'm not going anywhere then I just hang around in my 'badroom' while the rest of the family go about their business, taking a couple of opposing isometrics at a time, then doing something else for 20 minutes, then doing another couple etc. About twice a week in the evening I'll consolidate maybe 12 exercises into a semblance of a more formal workout. 

I'm not one for compacting a workout into as short a time as possible, generally. That's just me, of course.  Others will have different priorities.  I like to do a hold anytime I feel like it, even just wandering around the back yard.  The kids' jungle gym or a block of wood, anything. 

The only thing to remember is if I perform a 30-30-30 then I don't do it the next day.  Otherwise I might do the same iso two days in a row, the first day say for 60 seconds straight full max, the next day pulses of the same exercise (4 or 8 seconds on/off). Yesterday I did a steering wheel push for 4 second pulses on/off for 30 sets while driving home.  After I had the car towed out of the ditch :-) I finally arrived home after a further series of 20 sets of 4 second pulses pullouts (sideways) on the steering wheel. The previous day I had done the same exercises for singles, 50 seconds each.  Full max effort all. 

One develops the ability to count seconds with quite a degree of accuracy after being self-trained to the tick of a clock. Occasionally I am guided simply by the feel of it, nothing more, like mikey, (Mr Spud-bonce) who has in my opinion developed an intuitive approach to his exercise regime which is well worth paying attention to.   

With time, one can train oneself to fully focus at will nearly instantly on the exercise.  Obviously this doesn't apply only to isometrics, just that isometrics have a degree of "mental stillness" to them enhanced by the physical, reflective of the chi kung I've practiced over the years.

There's nothing particularly mystical about it.  Isometrics are easier on my elbows and knees, damaged by asinine behavior on the job decades ago when I was unwise enough to imagine I was bulletproof.

Overcoming isometrics can be as intense as you want for a prolonged period of time (relatively vs isotonics) or toned down for time.  Yielding and sub-max overcoming iso's are similar in this respect.  Yielding can keep you more honest, but as an example,  I've just knocked off a 120-second sub-max Monk No. 10 while typing this post.

It's a lotta fun.  

 

 

[mr potatohead]

Jul 22, 2018 0:16:58 GMT macky said:

.... I'm not one for compacting a workout into as short a time as possible, generally. That's just me, of course.  Others will have different priorities.  I like to do a hold anytime I feel like it, even just wandering around the back yard.  The kids' jungle gym or a block of wood, anything. ....... but as an example,  I've just knocked off a 120-second sub-max Monk No. 10 while typing this post.

It's a lotta fun.  

 

I do the same. BLS called it "walk-by exercise" or something like that, so what I do is throughout the day in an opportunistic way, using my equipment (or not) that is neatly scattered around the house.

I was not implying that I'm trying to take as little total time as possible to exercise, just that, per effort, per exercise, it doesn't take long because I keep tension high and continual for many of the strength exercises I do. I still enjoy (uncounted or timed) reps of Alt Arm DB C&P, for example, which may take several minutes. Like you, I also spread the total time spent exercising over the day, but I don't keep track of the total. I'd guess it might add up to somewhere from 15 minutes to an hour per day? It's just part of living and doing it this way makes it a treat I look forward to at any odd time I have or when I feel the need to refresh myself. 
Like I've posted before, when I go to the grocery, for example, I wheel the cart around by lifting the rear wheels with the cart push bar in a palms down curl tension hold. Quite unstable and the more goes into the cart, the heavier it becomes, of course. I also take opportunities to do a squat hold while searching the lower displays. And so on ....

[macky]

Jul 22, 2018 16:39:30 GMT mr potatohead said:

Jul 22, 2018 0:16:58 GMT macky said:

.... I'm not one for compacting a workout into as short a time as possible, generally. That's just me, of course.  Others will have different priorities.  I like to do a hold anytime I feel like it, even just wandering around the back yard.  The kids' jungle gym or a block of wood, anything. ....... but as an example,  I've just knocked off a 120-second sub-max Monk No. 10 while typing this post.

It's a lotta fun.  

 

I do the same. BLS called it "walk-by exercise" or something like that, so what I do is throughout the day in an opportunistic way, using my equipment (or not) that is neatly scattered around the house.

I was not implying that I'm trying to take as little total time as possible to exercise, just that, per effort, per exercise, it doesn't take long because I keep tension high and continual for many of the strength exercises I do. I still enjoy (uncounted or timed) reps of Alt Arm DB C&P, for example, which may take several minutes. Like you, I also spread the total time spent exercising over the day, but I don't keep track of the total. I'd guess it might add up to somewhere from 15 minutes to an hour per day? It's just part of living and doing it this way makes it a treat I look forward to at any odd time I have or when I feel the need to refresh myself. 
Like I've posted before, when I go to the grocery, for example, I wheel the cart around by lifting the rear wheels with the cart push bar in a palms down curl tension hold. Quite unstable and the more goes into the cart, the heavier it becomes, of course. I also take opportunities to do a squat hold while searching the lower displays. And so on ....

Good stuff !  You're not 'doing' exercise, you're living it, it's part of your daily living. Lately apart from the 30-30-30 attempts with a select few exercises,  I've also no longer been so reliant on the clock as I was before. It was more important before as I was extending the hold times out, but not so much now.

Back in those years a 30-second straight full effort hold was about my limit for max-holds, with sub-max out to 60 or 90.  But now I can belt out a 60-second max hold and of course as jonrock said, the 30-30-30 is brutal, but I'm good for about 3-4 exercises using it.

The rest I just vary between 30, 40, 50 or 60 second full efforts for maybe 2 sets, depending on how i feel during the day (or night ) or mix it up with pulses of varying hold-times. Back then I was done after a chest push of around 15 4-second on/off pulses, now I can knock off 30 of them without too much trouble.

I don't know just how much measurable bulk strength I've gained, and I don't really mind not knowing. The improvement in hold times and number of pulses is good enough for me, and Silverlooks pointed me in the direction of another goal of bringing increasing numbers of exercises under the 30-30-30 protocol.

Along with the increasing times for sub-max as well,  that's enough for me right now.