jonrock
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Post by jonrock on Jul 19, 2018 22:15:56 GMT
DDH, thanks for your words! TSC stands for timed static contraction, it is an overcoming isometric HIT approach in which you try to push or pull against an isometric position (secured with the iso strap, for example) exerting 50% effort for 30 seconds, then 75-85% effort for another 30 seconds and finally all out effort for the last 30 seconds, with a few seconds between phases to accomodate the more intense contraction, all the while breathing as normally as you can. Full attention to the task at hand is essential. It is brutal, the book is very good and I recommend it. I hope my explanation helps, DDH.
Shen, I can tell you that I read about it here for the first time and traced back to Baye who adapted TSC to one position isometrics, at least to my knowledge.
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Post by mr potatohead on Jul 19, 2018 22:19:55 GMT
I'll be damned if I can remember where this was found. Maybe T-Nation. Maybe someone here knows where. HERE'S a thread on it.
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Post by Bruce Tackett on Jul 20, 2018 1:02:45 GMT
Thank you, O Keeper of the Forum.
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Post by DDH on Jul 20, 2018 1:51:40 GMT
Thank you Mr.Potatohead! I need to check out past posts.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jul 20, 2018 6:36:15 GMT
Silverlooks said one position was fine, I think, and I bought Drew Baye's iso-course in which he stated that his own experience with isometrics had shown that trainers who did only the one position had got stronger over the full rom, which I've always believed anyway. How can a muscle that gets stronger at one angle not gain a measure of strength over the full rom ?
Whether they would have got even more stronger with 3 positions or not is only testable by oneself, I guess. The studies don't seem very conclusive, and they are themselves contradictory as far as I know.
I've found since that the 30-30-30 seconds protocol is tough, and you won't be repeating it on the day. I haven't been able to do it every time I've tried, often failing around 15 seconds into the third phase. It's a good goal to actually get to where one can do it all the time, I feel.
Trying to do 3 positions with it will only tire you out and be less than satisfactory tension-wise. Perhaps the 3 position regime would be better for straight holds of say 30 seconds, or even a 60 straight hold instead of progressive.
I found that doing a 20-20-20 hold in the same manner as Drew Baye's (Ken Hutchins) 30-30-30 where the first 20 is maybe a perceived 50%, the second 20 coming up to near max, and the third 20 full effort, was harder than a straight 60 second full effort for some reason.
Steve Maxwell also presents pretty much the same protocol in his course i.e. 30-30-30 at the critical angle, one position.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Jul 20, 2018 11:06:08 GMT
Silverlooks said one position was fine, I think, and I bought Drew Baye's iso-course in which he stated that his own experience with isometrics had shown that trainers who did only the one position had got stronger over the full rom, which I've always believed anyway. How can a muscle that gets stronger at one angle not gain a measure of strength over the full rom ?
Whether they would have got even more stronger with 3 positions or not is only testable by oneself, I guess. The studies don't seem very conclusive, and they are themselves contradictory as far as I know.
I've found since that the 30-30-30 seconds protocol is tough, and you won't be repeating it on the day. I haven't been able to do it every time I've tried, often failing around 15 seconds into the third phase. It's a good goal to actually get to where one can do it all the time, I feel.
Trying to do 3 positions with it will only tire you out and be less than satisfactory tension-wise. Perhaps the 3 position regime would be better for straight holds of say 30 seconds, or even a 60 straight hold instead of progressive.
I found that doing a 20-20-20 hold in the same manner as Drew Baye's (Ken Hutchins) 30-30-30 where the first 20 is maybe a perceived 50%, the second 20 coming up to near max, and the third 20 full effort, was harder than a straight 60 second full effort for some reason.
Steve Maxwell also presents pretty much the same protocol in his course i.e. 30-30-30 at the critical angle, one position. Nice insights Macky! I've always done what Bruce calls three point Isometrics. So I can't really comment on one position isometrics. But even though I'm not doing Isometrics right now I plan on experimenting with this in the fall or winter.
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jonrock
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Post by jonrock on Jul 20, 2018 12:31:53 GMT
I started doing 15-15-15 a month ago, now I do 20-20-20, will continue progressing little by little until I can do 30-30-30. It is harder than it seems on paper, to learn to control the contraction and also to not care about fatigue and go on until you truly can do no more, which is far more than what we think we can do. The mind plays tricks on us so we don't take it to the limit but if you have the courage to do it, you learn about yourself and break past your limits. Do it this way, and I assure you one position and one set is all you need. 3 positions is perfect for me for breaking past sticking points. For example in the ohp with sandbags I used to do semi isos with the Hook and lots of bands, so I moved very little but there was a lot of tension, a few sessions and I could lift the sandbag without resorting to using leg drive, for example.
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Post by gruntbrain on Jul 20, 2018 13:47:20 GMT
Try isometric squats using the Sierra Squat Harness with the Iso Strap .
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Post by Bruce Tackett on Jul 20, 2018 18:34:04 GMT
If I were to go on another iso-only diet, I would do 3-point isos for biceps and triceps. As Michael says, don't leave any stones unturned. But I wouldn't do 30-30-30 on each position. I'd do a 100% effort for 20 seconds or so on the top and bottom positions, and then 30-30-30 on the middle position. Maybe I'll do another 12-week experiment near the end of this year.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Jul 21, 2018 0:04:38 GMT
Bruce I think I'm going to do a 4-6 week experiment first with the 30-30-30 one point isometrics. Than I'm going to do the 3 point isometrics for 4-6 weeks. I'd like to compare them for myself. I'll do this after Thanksgiving because that's when I can experiment with stuff that I'm not sure about. It's my slow time at work. Here's a question for You. If someone experiments with two differant things like this, how much time apart should they do the next experiment? What I mean is, after the 30-30-30 should I go right into the 3 point or wait a week or two?
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Post by Bruce Tackett on Jul 21, 2018 0:53:32 GMT
I dunno. I don't see any point in putting any time between the two, unless you just want to rest up for a bit.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jul 21, 2018 7:59:03 GMT
Bruce I think I'm going to do a 4-6 week experiment first with the 30-30-30 one point isometrics. Than I'm going to do the 3 point isometrics for 4-6 weeks. I'd like to compare them for myself. I'll do this after Thanksgiving because that's when I can experiment with stuff that I'm not sure about. It's my slow time at work. Here's a question for You. If someone experiments with two differant things like this, how much time apart should they do the next experiment? What I mean is, after the 30-30-30 should I go right into the 3 point or wait a week or two?
May I butt in Michael ? If you get into doing 30-30-30 isometrics, don't expect to be able to do them straight away for the full 90 seconds on each exercise. It's only my own experience here, but I find that some days I just can't do the whole 90, but still do the first two 30's as per usual, then try to extend the time out on the last 30 until you are finally getting the lot.
But that is on "big" exercises as per Drew's course, the classic weight training drills such as squat, "bench", press, row etc. ( I do mostly some of the Monks' plus one or two others using the 30-30-30 and 20-20-20 lately.)
When it comes to exercises for the neck or weaker areas that need rehab, or simply strengthening up until ready for the 30-30-30, then 20-20-20 is a good compromise. You'll still get a good workout from it. As I said, 20-20-20 along that same protocol feels harder than 60 seconds straight max hold, for some reason.
If you compile say about 8 exercises for your workout that cover most of the body, and knock off one set each, I'm pretty sure you won't be doing much else for that day, or the next.
With the 30-30-30 protocol, I felt that I had been back on the weights the next day, not sore but tight and "compact". It's a different feeling from all the other hold times that I've ever done. But I was still quite tired all day.
Also yet another confirmation that there is so much in isometrics alone to investigate, that one could keep occupied for a very long time.
And in my opinion, should you follow the 30-30-30 for each exercise, then I would leave the 3-position protocol alone altogether for more than one reason. Firstly, you will be tired after the 30-30-30 unless you are used to that hold time and progression. Secondly, doing further isometrics, AND in 3-positions will not give you a chance to gauge your progress as to which it is that is most beneficial, or at least having the most effect on you. Does that make sense ?
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jonrock
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Post by jonrock on Jul 21, 2018 8:12:42 GMT
Macky, I agree, TSC isos tire me in a different way from weights, sabdbags and bodyweight work. It is hard to describe, I feel sorer 2 days after the workout, then the third or fourth day I am able to train hard again.
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jonrock
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Post by jonrock on Jul 21, 2018 8:46:44 GMT
Gruntbrain, I want to experiment with the squat harness for squats, good mornings, hand and thigh lifts and rack/supports emulations doing TSC isos.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Jul 21, 2018 11:15:03 GMT
Bruce I think I'm going to do a 4-6 week experiment first with the 30-30-30 one point isometrics. Than I'm going to do the 3 point isometrics for 4-6 weeks. I'd like to compare them for myself. I'll do this after Thanksgiving because that's when I can experiment with stuff that I'm not sure about. It's my slow time at work. Here's a question for You. If someone experiments with two differant things like this, how much time apart should they do the next experiment? What I mean is, after the 30-30-30 should I go right into the 3 point or wait a week or two?
May I butt in Michael ? If you get into doing 30-30-30 isometrics, don't expect to be able to do them straight away for the full 90 seconds on each exercise. It's only my own experience here, but I find that some days I just can't do the whole 90, but still do the first two 30's as per usual, then try to extend the time out on the last 30 until you are finally getting the lot.
But that is on "big" exercises as per Drew's course, the classic weight training drills such as squat, "bench", press, row etc. ( I do mostly some of the Monks' plus one or two others using the 30-30-30 and 20-20-20 lately.)
When it comes to exercises for the neck or weaker areas that need rehab, or simply strengthening up until ready for the 30-30-30, then 20-20-20 is a good compromise. You'll still get a good workout from it. As I said, 20-20-20 along that same protocol feels harder than 60 seconds straight max hold, for some reason.
If you compile say about 8 exercises for your workout that cover most of the body, and knock off one set each, I'm pretty sure you won't be doing much else for that day, or the next.
With the 30-30-30 protocol, I felt that I had been back on the weights the next day, not sore but tight and "compact". It's a different feeling from all the other hold times that I've ever done. But I was still quite tired all day.
Also yet another confirmation that there is so much in isometrics alone to investigate, that one could keep occupied for a very long time.
And in my opinion, should you follow the 30-30-30 for each exercise, then I would leave the 3-position protocol alone altogether for more than one reason. Firstly, you will be tired after the 30-30-30 unless you are used to that hold time and progression. Secondly, doing further isometrics, AND in 3-positions will not give you a chance to gauge your progress as to which it is that is most beneficial, or at least having the most effect on you. Does that make sense ?
Thank You Macky! Honestly I should know this from my past experience with isometrics but Your reminder is appreciated. Yeah You can get burned out doing to much intensity on isometrics. It's happened to me in the past. Definetly will take Your advice when I do try this. I don't understand fully your reason for not experimenting with 3 point isometrics? I have done all my isometrics with the 3 point protocol in the past. My thing was to do a recent experiment with them again. I wouldn't be doing it at the same time.
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