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Post by Deuce Gunner on Sept 3, 2021 17:34:29 GMT
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Post by mr potatohead on Sept 3, 2021 23:58:49 GMT
Yeh, I saw that. I wonder how much is true and how much is propaganda to keep people stirred up?
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macky
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Post by macky on Sept 4, 2021 0:29:38 GMT
When mad dogs are suddenly active in the community such as yesterday, they should be shot dead immediately like this bastard was, by Police, NOT by ladies with handguns in their purses drawing them and firing wildly in panic, and guys who have not yet identified their target shooting someone who is rushing towards a fallen victim trying to help them looking like a another aggressor rushing to finish the victim off.
AND the arsehole who was rightly removed from this planet permanently and is hopefully now somewhere where he belongs did NOT have a gun which undoubtedly saved possibly dozens of lives, as in the Dunedin knife attack where the aggressor also did NOT have a gun and was able to be tackled by undoubtedly brave shoppers who would likely have never been able to get near him without being shot, if he had had a gun.
In other words, the fewer the guns these extremists and ordinary citizens have at their disposal, especially easily concealed hand-guns, the better.
If NZ suddenly relaxed its gun laws the place would go even crazier than it is now, with the number of people being shot by criminals. Most of whom would not have been able to defend themselves even if they were armed. And most of them being other criminals or at least known to the shooter.
Most people don't walk around in NZ fearing that at any moment someone could pull a gun on them, therefore arming themselves up to the hilt with knives and firearms, the way I've seen on this forum.
Citizens in any civilized society should never feel as though they are under virtual armed siege and need to be armed themselves just to go shopping, for example.
Imagine the chaos yesterday if bystanders were armed, pulled their weapons in a crowded place like that mall, and started firing, never mind the offender.
Your own police last year couldn't even abide by safe gun procedures when he shot that idiot in the back running away from him, AND hitting a car with passengers in the dark, not checking his background first. And another experienced police officer who made a genuine mistake, firing her handgun instead of a taser at a fleeing crim, just for two examples.
In short, if NZ gun laws were anything like America's, yesterday's death toll would have been in the dozens. Not only by the offender, but by others trying to gun him down as well. Richochets and others injured by flying glass fragments notwithstanding.
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Post by mr potatohead on Sept 4, 2021 0:40:17 GMT
When mad dogs are suddenly active in the community such as yesterday, they should be shot dead immediately like this bastard was, by Police, NOT by ladies with handguns in their purses drawing them and firing wildly in panic, and guys who have not yet identified their target shooting someone who is rushing towards a fallen victim trying to help them looking like a another aggressor rushing to finish the victim off. ........ Well, duh. None of the people I know who carry resemble this. NZ must have a lot of irresponsible people. No wonder they took the guns. |
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macky
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Post by macky on Sept 4, 2021 1:09:08 GMT
When mad dogs are suddenly active in the community such as yesterday, they should be shot dead immediately like this bastard was, by Police, NOT by ladies with handguns in their purses drawing them and firing wildly in panic, and guys who have not yet identified their target shooting someone who is rushing towards a fallen victim trying to help them looking like a another aggressor rushing to finish the victim off. ........ Well, duh. None of the people I know who carry resemble this. NZ must have a lot of irresponsible people. No wonder they took the guns. Apart from the fact that "none of the people you know" doesn't represent about 330 million others in the US, give or take, that's where unrestricted gun laws can end up, where nobody can tell if someone is armed or not (and there are accounts of even old ladies in the US carrying) and where sudden attacks by extremists of one type or another can be far more lethal with a gun, than a knife. |
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Post by Deuce Gunner on Sept 4, 2021 14:39:05 GMT
An armed society is a polite society. In many states in the USA, (licensed) right to carry has been made easier due to legislation passed by lawmakers due to the wishes of the majority of the people that elected them. The 'it's going to be just like the wild west" predictions of the anti-gun groups has never played out anywhere here. If you say it would happen in NZ, then as Mikey states, you folks have some serious social problems which your lengthy written tirades (aka manifestos) may indeed prove. That or you're just wrong.
Oh, and research how many of these "mass stabbings" get stopped quick in Israel by legally armed citizens.
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pierinifitness
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Post by pierinifitness on Sept 4, 2021 14:47:00 GMT
I feel safer living in my open carry state. I don't carry yet.
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macky
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Post by macky on Sept 4, 2021 20:58:38 GMT
An armed society is a polite society. In many states in the USA, (licensed) right to carry has been made easier due to legislation passed by lawmakers due to the wishes of the majority of the people that elected them. The 'it's going to be just like the wild west" predictions of the anti-gun groups has never played out anywhere here. If you say it would happen in NZ, then as Mikey states, you folks have some serious social problems which your lengthy written tirades (aka manifestos) may indeed prove. That or you're just wrong. Oh, and research how many of these "mass stabbings" get stopped quick in Israel by legally armed citizens. There are reasonable points you make, but remember that NZ IS armed to a great extent, but not with handguns. And the law here states that you can carry an approved weapon (shotgun, rifle etc) from a gunshop to home in public provided it's not loaded, and take it to a hunting/target shooting site in your car (what else are you gonna take it in?) provided once again it's not loaded. Hence you don't have the spectacle of people turning up with fully loaded military style weapons at demonstrations etc. As far as handguns are concerned, they are obtainable but I think only if one belongs to a gun club, I could be wrong. There's very few of them around, mainly I would say because of the large size of available models, and their great cost (in the thousands). The anti-gun groups which I have never approved of because of possible "background" influences with their own agendas, are not prominent here in the news, unless something like the mosque attacks in Christchurch happen, which is an entirely exceptional occurrence anyway. It might be worth noting re your and mikey's comments about possible social problems, that the inevitable reviews of the status of firearms in NZ after the mosque shootings (by an Australian national) revealed that NZ and the US stood alone in the "civilized" world as having approx 96% of known weapons unregistered, yet here we don't have the same degree of shootings as the States, a country where handguns are prolific and easily concealable, due to many models having a small size that can be slipped into a handbag or even just a large pocket. It's just that when a society has guns everywhere, and decent citizens grow up with being accustomed to that scenery, it's always going to be different than a society that is not. Therefore a (publicly) unarmed society can be a polite society as well. And about your comment about "lengthy written tirades" it should be noted that in my lengthy posts I have tried to cover as many points thoroughly rather than engaging in throwaway unproven remarks that we are all guilty of sometimes. My reference to our debate last year re the idiot taking off with a taser after overpowering TWO police officers then being shot in the back when he was no further immediate threat to said firing officer AND the officer also hitting a vehicle with passengers inside who could have been killed, and the luke-warm responses on here highlights the tacit acceptance of such gross incompetence by police not only losing control of an arrest, but from the misuse of firearms, as one notable example. And in Israel, it is NOT possible for any person just to walk in and buy a handgun, or any gun, unless they have passed stringent tests and are proven competent. www.gov.il/en/departments/general/firearm-licensing-informationIt should also be noted that there have been thousands of lone-wolf attacks (among the most dangerous kind, as here in NZ) since 2016 in Israel. It is frequent, a tactic by said attackers that do not necessarily belong to any terror group, and which makes them even more dangerous. That is not the case in America, as far as I know. |
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Post by Deuce Gunner on Sept 4, 2021 23:37:20 GMT
And ZING there you go again!
If NZ outlaws knives, a truly committed terrorist will just use a car or truck, Do you want to outlaw them for public use also?
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Post by mr potatohead on Sept 5, 2021 0:43:40 GMT
An armed society is a polite society. In many states in the USA, (licensed) right to carry has been made easier due to legislation passed by lawmakers due to the wishes of the majority of the people that elected them. The 'it's going to be just like the wild west" predictions of the anti-gun groups has never played out anywhere here. If you say it would happen in NZ, then as Mikey states, you folks have some serious social problems which your lengthy written tirades (aka manifestos) may indeed prove. That or you're just wrong. Oh, and research how many of these "mass stabbings" get stopped quick in Israel by legally armed citizens. There are reasonable points you make, but remember that NZ IS armed to a great extent, but not with handguns. And the law here states that you can carry an approved weapon (shotgun, rifle etc) from a gunshop to home in public provided it's not loaded, and take it to a hunting/target shooting site in your car (what else are you gonna take it in?) provided once again it's not loaded. Hence you don't have the spectacle of people turning up with fully loaded military style weapons at demonstrations etc. As far as handguns are concerned, they are obtainable but I think only if one belongs to a gun club, I could be wrong. There's very few of them around, mainly I would say because of the large size of available models, and their great cost (in the thousands). The anti-gun groups which I have never approved of because of possible "background" influences with their own agendas, are not prominent here in the news, unless something like the mosque attacks in Christchurch happen, which is an entirely exceptional occurrence anyway. It might be worth noting re your and mikey's comments about possible social problems, that the inevitable reviews of the status of firearms in NZ after the mosque shootings (by an Australian national) revealed that NZ and the US stood alone in the "civilized" world as having approx 96% of known weapons unregistered, yet here we don't have the same degree of shootings as the States, a country where handguns are prolific and easily concealable, due to many models having a small size that can be slipped into a handbag or even just a large pocket. It's just that when a society has guns everywhere, and decent citizens grow up with being accustomed to that scenery, it's always going to be different than a society that is not. Therefore a (publicly) unarmed society can be a polite society as well. And about your comment about "lengthy written tirades" it should be noted that in my lengthy posts I have tried to cover as many points thoroughly rather than engaging in throwaway unproven remarks that we are all guilty of sometimes. My reference to our debate last year re the idiot taking off with a taser after overpowering TWO police officers then being shot in the back when he was no further immediate threat to said firing officer AND the officer also hitting a vehicle with passengers inside who could have been killed, and the luke-warm responses on here highlights the tacit acceptance of such gross incompetence by police not only losing control of an arrest, but from the misuse of firearms, as one notable example. And in Israel, it is NOT possible for any person just to walk in and buy a handgun, or any gun, unless they have passed stringent tests and are proven competent. www.gov.il/en/departments/general/firearm-licensing-informationIt should also be noted that there have been thousands of lone-wolf attacks (among the most dangerous kind, as here in NZ) since 2016 in Israel. It is frequent, a tactic by said attackers that do not necessarily belong to any terror group, and which makes them even more dangerous. That is not the case in America, as far as I know. I agree, that makes a difference. This gap can be quickly and easily bridged when gun restrictions are lifted by some basic education and availability of personal instruction. The education and instruction is readily available at little to no cost. I've noticed that the people who are frightened of others having one is due to their own irrational fears, ignorance and lack of personal development (of which they seem to be self-aware), so, in effect, the "dysfunctional" disqualify THEMSELVES resulting in no outside restrictions needed. I've witnessed this in with adults who did not grow up with firearms and had no clue how to use them. It's like any tool. It's not scary if you know how to use it safely and that is very easy to learn the common sense of it and the simple mechanics of the firearm itself. |
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macky
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Post by macky on Sept 5, 2021 4:08:59 GMT
I agree, that makes a difference. This gap can be quickly and easily bridged when gun restrictions are lifted by some basic education and availability of personal instruction. The education and instruction is readily available at little to no cost. I've noticed that the people who are frightened of others having one is due to their own irrational fears, ignorance and lack of personal development (of which they seem to be self-aware), so, in effect, the "dysfunctional" disqualify THEMSELVES resulting in no outside restrictions needed. I've witnessed this in with adults who did not grow up with firearms and had no clue how to use them. It's like any tool. It's not scary if you know how to use it safely and that is very easy to learn the common sense of it and the simple mechanics of the firearm itself. If NZ had similar laws as Israel, stringent vetting of the applicant, proper training to the satisfaction of the attending officer, the person AND the gun was registered, and like vehicles they had to be re-registered every year, the gun owner too, then I would have no problem with guns in public. Under those circumstances, the terrorist wouldn't have had a gun (as he didn't), but some bystanders properly trained may have, and their careful shots may have at least stopped the terrorist (hopefully for good) after perhaps only one or two people being stabbed. The problem is when guns can be bought from shops by just giving a name (perhaps) and then taken away, no registration, no vetting of the buyer. |
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Post by macky on Sept 5, 2021 4:14:28 GMT
And ZING there you go again! If NZ outlaws knives, a truly committed terrorist will just use a car or truck, Do you want to outlaw them for public use also? Oh nonsense Deuce. We're talking about guns and a lone wolf attack by an ISIS supporter. Anything at all can be used for a terrorist attack, a bus commandeered by force and used to ram a whole lot of people in a market place. Or even four passenger aircraft taken over by "Islamic radicals" and flown into towers , the Pentagon, and the ground. That's the Official Story anyway. |
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Post by mr potatohead on Sept 5, 2021 6:14:32 GMT
I agree, that makes a difference. This gap can be quickly and easily bridged when gun restrictions are lifted by some basic education and availability of personal instruction. The education and instruction is readily available at little to no cost. I've noticed that the people who are frightened of others having one is due to their own irrational fears, ignorance and lack of personal development (of which they seem to be self-aware), so, in effect, the "dysfunctional" disqualify THEMSELVES resulting in no outside restrictions needed. I've witnessed this in with adults who did not grow up with firearms and had no clue how to use them. It's like any tool. It's not scary if you know how to use it safely and that is very easy to learn the common sense of it and the simple mechanics of the firearm itself.
Under those circumstances, the terrorist wouldn't have had a gun (as he didn't), but some bystanders properly trained may have, and their careful shots may have at least stopped the terrorist (hopefully for good) after perhaps only one or two people being stabbed. The problem is when guns can be bought from shops by just giving a name (perhaps) and then taken away, no registration, no vetting of the buyer. The bold ^^ Our culture is one of gun "sportsmen" (and women, of course) who enjoy the many sports, activities and social aspects of it, along with people who are motivated to arm themselves for self defense, knowing that the tool they are using requires attention. That culture does not tolerate anyone screwing it up for everyone else, so it is mostly self-policing. If you screw up even the slightest in action or speech around another sportsman, they're going to let you know about it. Plus, safe handling and accuracy instruction is readily available from other experienced sportsmen. I have no fear of an 98# old lady that's carrying. I bet she knows what she's doing and what a great surprise for any would-be 250# perp. People who don't know what they're doing don't carry a gun. In areas like DC, perps can confidently do their nasties without much danger to themselves due to the safety the gun laws provide for the bad guys. But, go out of those pockets of Marxists anti-freedom and lack of common sense areas and the perps are not doing anything because if they do, they risk forfeiting their life. I'll say, macky m8, that I've encountered people in my life that I knew for a year, at least, before they told me that they always carry. The bad guys just never know and it helps. |
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macky
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Post by macky on Sept 5, 2021 7:17:56 GMT
I accept what you're saying, but you're not "one country" like NZ is, and different states have different laws regarding guns. Plus the sheer number of unregistered guns just like NZ, but millions more by far, along with prolific handguns, able to be picked up by those that do not take the time to train in safe handling and use, (in states like Texas where they can buy a gun without a permit, or like Nevada where apparently they do not have to tell anyone they have a gun), simply because they are only interested in criminal activity.
Then carrying said guns into states/areas where strict gun laws may have virtually disarmed decent citizens, who are left with no answer to armed thuggery.
In my opinion, if a 200+ year old Constitution is going to be continuously quoted as the mandate for the right to bear arms, then at least make federal laws re guns that apply to everyone, every state.
Then the whole country is on a level playing field. It's part of the reason why there's so much argument about guns in general.
In NZ, and the UK, gun ownership is not a right, it's a privilege. The different laws and attitude that The People grow up with keeps gun crime down.
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