macky
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Post by macky on Sept 21, 2020 4:04:07 GMT
Good post Stormshadow. The link's content was originally under "Hello Brad" or similar, and is a course in itself on strandpulling. Good tips, the classic pulls (except the True Archer's Pull) in depth and further advice to go with. The Fatman link is also very worthwhile reading. Fatman created a classic on strandpulling in my opinion. Just as true today as it was back in 2009.
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moxohol
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Post by moxohol on Sept 21, 2020 4:23:30 GMT
Yielding isometrics with heavy resistance bands is a nice workout addition. I'm using them now to compliment an O/C isometric session. "accentuated negatives" is the extra benefit of using elastic bands in lieu of weights or calisthenics.
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Post by macky on Sept 21, 2020 5:40:53 GMT
For those who may be interested in such things, the old time longbowmen pulled bows that were as high as 180-200lbs pullweight, and were expected to loose some 6 arrows per minute in the heat of the battle at times. The strandpulling archer exercise as it has been traditionally presented is really a horizontal triceps stretch, not the proper draw back to the chest or jaw of the True Archer's Pull, which I took a bit of time on the old Strandpulling forum to try and explain. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow Have a shufti at this link for an idea about how things were. When one remembers that according to the literature on modern longbows, a modern longbow is about 80lbs draw weight, which is okay for a moderately strong archer. When one considers the old long bows that took 140lbs upwards to draw, the upper bodies on the old longbowmen must have been quite impressive, most having trained on lighter bows starting at about age 12, and working their way up in strengths of longbows through their teen years. Their right hand index and middle fingers must have been something else. Imagine 140lbs + pullweight on two fingers, even if they are leather-covered. In fact, skeletons of elite bowmen recovered from the Mary Rose shipwreck were in some cases notably deformed, obviously because of the one-sided training for years that it took for a top bowman. The bows that were recovered from the ship were a great find, because surviving longbows from centuries ago are non-existent, as far as I know. Some of the recovered bows were tested to destruction and although they would still be a challenge for some, the centuries under the sea had deteriorated them somewhat. When exact replicas were made, then it was realized just how powerful those bows really were. As regards modern strandpulling, one can jack up shorter strand arrangements that will provide a True Archers Pull, and which of course one can do from both sides. The Hook is a good example. The "bow" is a handle, and loops can be pulled back with the fingers. Loops of bungee cord can be doubled until a decent pull can be performed. You will find the TAP a very powerful exercise, and one should definitely warm up for it.
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Dave Reslo
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Post by Dave Reslo on Sept 21, 2020 9:07:30 GMT
For those who may be interested in such things, the old time longbowmen pulled bows that were as high as 180-200lbs pullweight, and were expected to loose some 6 arrows per minute in the heat of the battle at times. The strandpulling archer exercise as it has been traditionally presented is really a horizontal triceps stretch, not the proper draw back to the chest or jaw of the True Archer's Pull, which I took a bit of time on the old Strandpulling forum to try and explain. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow Have a shufti at this link for an idea about how things were. When one remembers that according to the literature on modern longbows, a modern longbow is about 80lbs draw weight, which is okay for a moderately strong archer. When one considers the old long bows that took 140lbs upwards to draw, the upper bodies on the old longbowmen must have been quite impressive, most having trained on lighter bows starting at about age 12, and working their way up in strengths of longbows through their teen years. Their right hand index and middle fingers must have been something else. Imagine 140lbs + pullweight on two fingers, even if they are leather-covered. In fact, skeletons of elite bowmen recovered from the Mary Rose shipwreck were in some cases notably deformed, obviously because of the one-sided training for years that it took for a top bowman. The bows that were recovered from the ship were a great find, because surviving longbows from centuries ago are non-existent, as far as I know. Some of the recovered bows were tested to destruction and although they would still be a challenge for some, the centuries under the sea had deteriorated them somewhat. When exact replicas were made, then it was realized just how powerful those bows really were. As regards modern strandpulling, one can jack up shorter strand arrangements that will provide a True Archers Pull, and which of course one can do from both sides. The Hook is a good example. The "bow" is a handle, and loops can be pulled back with the fingers. Loops of bungee cord can be doubled until a decent pull can be performed. You will find the TAP a very powerful exercise, and one should definitely warm up for it. As the wikipedia article now says, archers weren't actually drawing a ten stone bow like we would see some draw a bow nowadays, they had a different method to get it in place (I actually thought they might have done something like a high pull over one foot since there is evidence of them training like that). They still had to hold the strain though I suppose.
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macky
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Post by macky on Sept 21, 2020 11:24:08 GMT
I guess as the battle progressed and the enemy drew nearer, the bowmen would have had to hold the draw for varying amounts of time, albeit maybe 'only' 5 seconds. An example could be a knight on a horse which one particular bowman was lining up, only to see the knight hit by an arrow from some other bowman, and his already drawn bow swinging around for another target. Having begun the battle with volleys of arrows raining down on the enemy from around perhaps 100-150 yards, the charges of the knights on their horses would have given very little time for a bowman to nock, draw and aim his next arrow, therefore I believe there would often be drawn bows held for several seconds ready to loose. The knights on their horses themselves would only be seconds away.
It was determined by experiment years ago that for armour to be penetrated by arrows, the knight would have to be closer than about 60 feet, maybe 30 yards of course depending on the quality of the armour. Therefore horses may have been more ready targets to bring the knight down to the ground where he could be dealt with by men-at-arms. Running around on foot with 80lbs of armour trying to defend oneself against perhaps more than one attacker is not really a good day for anyone, especially in the mud.
Just a rough example.
One has to remember that as in strandpulling where the two arms are opposing each other in (say) a front pull extended out, 140 + lbs strain on the drawn bow and string is 140 pounds strain on each arm, not divided as say an overhead press with both arms pushing in the same direction. So the trained strength of these bowmen must have been phenomenal, especially with the even heavier bows. Even with "bending in the bow" the whole upper back and shoulders are being used, besides the arms and mitts.
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Post by stormshadow on Sept 21, 2020 16:45:06 GMT
Macky I absolutely love your posts on archery and history. That is how I met many of my friends here. I searched for bow info and Bronze bow came up all those years ago. I have two longbows (115 and 130 pound draw weight), five recurves (35, 45, 55, 75,and 85 pounds) and two crossbows (150 and 175). I do not own a compound bow. Two other people that knew a lot about bows were Malcolm and his brother who unfortunately passed away. If anyone here keeps in touch with him please send Malcolm my best wishes.
I also enjoy anything you post truth be told Macky.
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Dave Reslo
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Post by Dave Reslo on Sept 21, 2020 20:54:07 GMT
I guess as the battle progressed and the enemy drew nearer, the bowmen would have had to hold the draw for varying amounts of time, albeit maybe 'only' 5 seconds. An example could be a knight on a horse which one particular bowman was lining up, only to see the knight hit by an arrow from some other bowman, and his already drawn bow swinging around for another target. Having begun the battle with volleys of arrows raining down on the enemy from around perhaps 100-150 yards, the charges of the knights on their horses would have given very little time for a bowman to nock, draw and aim his next arrow, therefore I believe there would often be drawn bows held for several seconds ready to loose. The knights on their horses themselves would only be seconds away. It was determined by experiment years ago that for armour to be penetrated by arrows, the knight would have to be closer than about 60 feet, maybe 30 yards of course depending on the quality of the armour. Therefore horses may have been more ready targets to bring the knight down to the ground where he could be dealt with by men-at-arms. Running around on foot with 80lbs of armour trying to defend oneself against perhaps more than one attacker is not really a good day for anyone, especially in the mud. Just a rough example. One has to remember that as in strandpulling where the two arms are opposing each other in (say) a front pull extended out, 140 + lbs strain on the drawn bow and string is 140 pounds strain on each arm, not divided as say an overhead press with both arms pushing in the same direction. So the trained strength of these bowmen must have been phenomenal, especially with the even heavier bows. Even with "bending in the bow" the whole upper back and shoulders are being used, besides the arms and mitts. That's something I was wondering- did they really aim for a target or did they tend to just launch into a crowd? Some people online say it was almost entirely volleys into an area but other people claim archers were accurate at about 80 yards.
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Post by Deuce Gunner on Sept 21, 2020 22:01:20 GMT
It was determined by experiment years ago that for armour to be penetrated by arrows, the knight would have to be closer than about 60 feet, maybe 30 yards of course depending on the quality of the armour. Therefore horses may have been more ready targets to bring the knight down to the ground where he could be dealt with by men-at-arms. Running around on foot with 80lbs of armour trying to defend oneself against perhaps more than one attacker is not really a good day for anyone, especially in the mud. I've read a detailed article once about the Battle of Agincourt. This was one of the first battles where a full blown charge of knights (nobleman acting as heavy cavalry) was defeated by mainly longbowmen (commoners) foot soldiers. The author claimed that many of the French Knights became casualties due to the fact that Knights had to purchase their armor with their own funds. Contrary to what you see in paintings or illustrations in museums many could only afford armor for themselves but not for their mounts. An unprotected horse that was hit by a longbowman's arrow at full charging speed either went down or threw his rider and when you go take a fall like that wearing heavy plate or chain mail you were in a world of hurt! Many a dazed and wounded Knight was finished off by a longbowman's dagger, axe, or mallet when they then moved forward to partake of the spoils of war. It was pretty common knowledge amongst soldiers right up to WWI that the best way to stop a man on a horse was to stop the horse. Also I would like to add that I also believe the TAP with The Hook and short bands is a great exercise. I start by by pointing the handle at about a 45 degree angle toward the ground and angled to one one side. Using some rotational power from my torso helps turn it into a compound movement as I draw back to let loose at the imaginary frog atop his charging horse.
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macky
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Post by macky on Sept 22, 2020 3:27:26 GMT
I guess as the battle progressed and the enemy drew nearer, the bowmen would have had to hold the draw for varying amounts of time, albeit maybe 'only' 5 seconds. An example could be a knight on a horse which one particular bowman was lining up, only to see the knight hit by an arrow from some other bowman, and his already drawn bow swinging around for another target. Having begun the battle with volleys of arrows raining down on the enemy from around perhaps 100-150 yards, the charges of the knights on their horses would have given very little time for a bowman to nock, draw and aim his next arrow, therefore I believe there would often be drawn bows held for several seconds ready to loose. The knights on their horses themselves would only be seconds away. It was determined by experiment years ago that for armour to be penetrated by arrows, the knight would have to be closer than about 60 feet, maybe 30 yards of course depending on the quality of the armour. Therefore horses may have been more ready targets to bring the knight down to the ground where he could be dealt with by men-at-arms. Running around on foot with 80lbs of armour trying to defend oneself against perhaps more than one attacker is not really a good day for anyone, especially in the mud. Just a rough example. One has to remember that as in strandpulling where the two arms are opposing each other in (say) a front pull extended out, 140 + lbs strain on the drawn bow and string is 140 pounds strain on each arm, not divided as say an overhead press with both arms pushing in the same direction. So the trained strength of these bowmen must have been phenomenal, especially with the even heavier bows. Even with "bending in the bow" the whole upper back and shoulders are being used, besides the arms and mitts. That's something I was wondering- did they really aim for a target or did they tend to just launch into a crowd? Some people online say it was almost entirely volleys into an area but other people claim archers were accurate at about 80 yards. I'm no expert, but I believe the volleys were by the thousand arrows falling among the enemy pretty much at the start, a sort of demoralizing effect on those that were not armoured on the ground, or armoured only partially. The longbows outranged opposing crossbows and took a lot less time to nock aim and loose. At Crecy, the crossbowmen unwisely left behind their shields that they used while they were winding up their bows, and firstly were shot to bits by English longbowmen, then later by the French themselves who were under the impression the retreating crossbowmen were acting cowardly, and started to hack them down, a sure sign of undisciplined reaction by the French. This left pretty much only the cream of French nobility (knights etc) to make the charges, which they did again and again against "dug in" longbowmen who steadily shot the horses and some of the knights down by the dozen. Those knights that were felled to earth by their mounts copping well-aimed arrows (some horses actually were armoured but the legs of course were bare) were quickly overwhelmed and killed by men-at-arms who had the advantage of mobility, numbers, and not taking a hard fall to the ground. As the bodies kept on piling up, by the hundreds and later the thousand, the way became blocked by the piles of bodies and horses, and further charges were shot down by well-aimed arrows, by longbowmen who had trained in power and accuracy since early youth. It was a demonstration of cool discipline under siege, and the power of the longbow under the ideal conditions of placement according to battle plans, and the time to get themselves ready, both ample in the case of Crecy. Plus back-up by men-at-arms mopping up after the targeted arrows found their mark, either knight or his horse.
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macky
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Post by macky on Sept 22, 2020 3:50:04 GMT
Macky I absolutely love your posts on archery and history. That is how I met many of my friends here. I searched for bow info and Bronze bow came up all those years ago. I have two longbows (115 and 130 pound draw weight), five recurves (35, 45, 55, 75,and 85 pounds) and two crossbows (150 and 175). I do not own a compound bow. Two other people that knew a lot about bows were Malcolm and his brother who unfortunately passed away. If anyone here keeps in touch with him please send Malcolm my best wishes. I also enjoy anything you post truth be told Macky. Well here you go...an experienced archer among us. 115 and 130 lbs draw weights for your longbows are certainly not to be sneezed at. That's serious. Some time ago after I had posted on the old strandpulling forum a piece about what I termed True Archers Pull (as an attempt to distinguish it from the triceps extension it has become in various courses, Reg Park's included) I had a York? plastic handle/bungee cord set that I simply shortened to be able to perform TAPs of various strengths. Deuce is right. The TAP is a great exercise and I believe it would possibly be the most powerful of all but the back press. In saying that, I had measured the pullweights of successive bungee cords to stretch (about 3 feet from outstretched arm to jaw) with a suitcase scale, something I bought when Fatman and myself were measuring Lifeline's apparently exaggerated poundages for their cables. It turned out that with all five cords, the pullweight was about 105 and I could do 5-8 reps with either arm pulling, standing straight. So your 115 and 130 draws are impressive. Just a question. How many fingers do you use to pull the string back ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2020 8:26:37 GMT
Hey stormshadow thanks for the link mate i will check that out 👍
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Post by jrmeatplow on Sept 22, 2020 10:05:34 GMT
another traditional archer here! I thought in modern times that Howard Hill held the record for the heaviest bow pull. Seems like it was a 170 or 175lb longbow. Does anyone know if this is correct?
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Post by stormshadow on Sept 22, 2020 12:17:25 GMT
JR I think this is the record, but I am certain that you are right about Hill and I am sure he shot it super accurately. www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/heaviest-longbow-draw-weightMacky I use the same three finger pull the guy above does. One finger above, two below. Some like the three under the arrow, but I don't like it. The guy above is hunched over and probably not ideal form, but hey, I forgive him given the 200 lbs. He can be consistent with it as long as he repeats the same form every time. I really like this Howard Hill video You might like this too en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_HillPleasure Baz. Lots of good information in those two. I like the Fatman's guide best followed by Brad Reid.
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macky
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Post by macky on Sept 22, 2020 21:33:59 GMT
JR I think this is the record, but I am certain that you are right about Hill and I am sure he shot it super accurately. www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/heaviest-longbow-draw-weightMacky I use the same three finger pull the guy above does. One finger above, two below. Some like the three under the arrow, but I don't like it. The guy above is hunched over and probably not ideal form, but hey, I forgive him given the 200 lbs. He can be consistent with it as long as he repeats the same form every time. You might like this too en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_HillPleasure Baz. Lots of good information in those two. I like the Fatman's guide best followed by Brad Reid. I read the wiki and saw parts of the video. Hill was obviously a champion marksman but it proves beyond doubt that even with rapid shots, the longbowmen of yore could certainly hit a horse's flank or a knight at least twice (each) while the knight was nearly upon the bowmen (60-90 feet away). With the bodkin points, the arrows would certainly have penetrated even plate armour at that close range, and on the ground, a man-at-arm's chainmail would have stood no chance at all, even at a greater distance. It's also significant that Hill felled a bull elephant with a 41" arrow shot by a bow with 115lbs pullweight. With Stormshadow's 115 and 130 pounders, and using his three fingers to hold back that string-weight, even briefly, I would imagine he has no trouble getting the lids off preserving jars.
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Post by vegetus25 on Sept 23, 2020 1:09:01 GMT
I moved this post to the archery post.
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