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Post by Magnus on Jul 14, 2020 10:09:23 GMT
Still waiting on an answer: (i.e.: non-functional strength ..... it's there, but it doesn't function) Certainly, when you're strong enough to do a type of work, being strong enough is functional in that context. That doesn't change the fact that all strength is functional, although it may not be sufficient for a particular task, it's there, it works, it's strength and it functions. OK, without 'splitting hairs', this is a pretty good definition of "functional strength" : "Functional strength training involves performing work against resistance in such a manner that the improvements in strength directly enhance the performance of movements so that an individual's activities of daily living are easier to perform. Simply stated, the primary goal of functional training is to transfer the improvements in strength achieved in one movement to enhancing the performance of another movement by affecting the entire neuromuscular system." www.acefitness.org/education-and-resources/lifestyle/blog/1452/what-is-functional-strength-training/...and as for: "What strength has no useful function? (i.e.: non-functional strength ..... it's there, but it doesn't function)" I would say that it would depend on the circumstance, for example, someone training to be a pro boxer has much less use for one rep max strength in the bench press than someone training to be a powerlifter. For the boxer, the bench press strength is pretty much "non-functional", whereas other types of strength are much more 'functional' for his purposes
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Jul 14, 2020 10:17:30 GMT
All strength is functional. Functional is just a word they add just to sell people on an idea. Different people can have more strength in different tasks. Magnus, You could be stronger at picking something up off the ground whereas maybe I'd be stronger at dragging something. The same with different kinds of endurance tasks. From my own experience, most exercise if done reasonably will carry over to a physical job much more than doing nothing at all. It may feel like there is no carryover because You've never done the job before. You said," began getting stronger in the specific tasks I did on the job". Once that happens You don't get any stronger from the job, You may just build work capacity and toughen up. I've seen all different types of people do tree work. Most of the guys that had no strength training background did not last. I respectfully disagree, as a matter of fact, when working for the tree service I gave up the weights for awhile because I just didn't have the energy to do both. Months later, after steadily doing heavy tree work I weighed myself and I was up a good few pounds, yet my waist size had decreased !... ...and contrary to your experience, when I did tree work in the early to mid 1980's there wasn't one person that I remember working with that had ever worked out in a gym. The guys I worked with were mostly French Canadian's and American Indian's from Canada and far upstate NY, these guys all smoked cigarette's and drank themselves silly after work, training in a gym was probably the furthest thing from their minds... Let me correct what I wrote. Most of the guys I worked with over the years didn't do any exercise at all. From seeing this for 25 years, those guys were injured all the time, their work capacity fell off in there 40's, and a lot of them didn't last into their 50's. There are some that are different. One guy I work with now is 62 years old, he's had so many shoulder operations, lives on pain pills, and is still pretty strong. Who the hell would want to live like that. I've had guys that worked with me on the ground that had a strength training background that were just fine. But one guy came one time and I said to myself ,"This guy is going to be strong as hell". But he came up to me around 12 in the afternoon and said."How the hell do You do this all day? How are You still picking up those logs? I'm done and going home". Never seen him again. It sounds stupid(and it is) but physical work it self is more mental and being able to push through pain. I just don't believe there is any strength that is not functional, makes no sense to me. I do believe for myself, exercise has prevented me a lot of injuries and has kept my strength for work good. It makes me feel good and is fun to me. Exercise helps me to relax because I can't sit still.
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Post by mr potatohead on Jul 14, 2020 10:42:55 GMT
Still waiting on an answer: (i.e.: non-functional strength ..... it's there, but it doesn't function) Certainly, when you're strong enough to do a type of work, being strong enough is functional in that context. That doesn't change the fact that all strength is functional, although it may not be sufficient for a particular task, it's there, it works, it's strength and it functions. OK, without 'splitting hairs', this is a pretty good definition of "functional strength" : "Functional strength training involves performing work against resistance in such a manner that the improvements in strength directly enhance the performance of movements so that an individual's activities of daily living are easier to perform. Simply stated, the primary goal of functional training is to transfer the improvements in strength achieved in one movement to enhancing the performance of another movement by affecting the entire neuromuscular system." www.acefitness.org/education-and-resources/lifestyle/blog/1452/what-is-functional-strength-training/...and as for: "What strength has no useful function? (i.e.: non-functional strength ..... it's there, but it doesn't function)" I would say that it would depend on the circumstance, for example, someone training to be a pro boxer has much less use for one rep max strength in the bench press than someone training to be a powerlifter. For the boxer, the bench press strength is pretty much "non-functional", whereas other types of strength are much more 'functional' for his purposes Nope. That's about training to gain strength that will be functional (useful) within the context of a specific activity. Yes, I've done that. I have exercised to gain strength beyond that needed for my daily physical job. That "training" was functional to make the work I was doing easier. Functional training is a different topic. It does not change the fact that all strength is functional.
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Post by Magnus on Jul 14, 2020 10:58:41 GMT
....But one guy came one time and I said to myself ,"This guy is going to be strong as hell". But he came up to me around 12 in the afternoon and said."How the hell do You do this all day? How are You still picking up those logs? I'm done and going home". Never seen him again. It sounds stupid(and it is) but physical work it self is more mental and being able to push through pain. Yep, I've seen that a few times myself, some big bodybuilder / weightlifter type, and after a few hours they were sucking wind. Usually they'd disappear sometime before lunch, never to be heard from again. I guess they're 'strength' just wasn't 'functional' enough to do heavy physical labor,
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Post by Magnus on Jul 14, 2020 11:00:56 GMT
OK, without 'splitting hairs', this is a pretty good definition of "functional strength" : "Functional strength training involves performing work against resistance in such a manner that the improvements in strength directly enhance the performance of movements so that an individual's activities of daily living are easier to perform. Simply stated, the primary goal of functional training is to transfer the improvements in strength achieved in one movement to enhancing the performance of another movement by affecting the entire neuromuscular system." www.acefitness.org/education-and-resources/lifestyle/blog/1452/what-is-functional-strength-training/...and as for: "What strength has no useful function? (i.e.: non-functional strength ..... it's there, but it doesn't function)" I would say that it would depend on the circumstance, for example, someone training to be a pro boxer has much less use for one rep max strength in the bench press than someone training to be a powerlifter. For the boxer, the bench press strength is pretty much "non-functional", whereas other types of strength are much more 'functional' for his purposes Nope. That's about training to gain strength that will be functional (useful) within the context of a specific activity. Yes, I've done that. I have exercised to gain strength beyond that needed for my daily physical job. That "training" was functional to make the work I was doing easier. Functional training is a different topic. It does not change the fact that all strength is functional. You're "splitting hairs", strength in something like a heavy one rep max bench press isn't 'functional' for just about anything other than a powerlifting contest and you know it
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Post by mr potatohead on Jul 14, 2020 11:07:33 GMT
I'm stepping off of this merry-go-round now.
There are multiple threads and discussions that can be searched here on the forum regarding functional strength training, functional training, functional exercise, etc.
All strength is functional. Training or exercise may be functional or not and is a different topic.
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moxohol
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Post by moxohol on Jul 14, 2020 12:15:15 GMT
I'm stepping off of this merry-go-round now. There are multiple threads and discussions that can be searched here on the forum regarding functional strength training, functional training, functional exercise, etc. All strength is functional. Training or exercise may be functional or not and is a different topic. Funny thing is they prefix adjectives in the English language to denote exceptions or narrow the focus. Functional strength, speed strength, endurance strength, limit strength, negative strength, concentric strength, etc-etc.
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moxohol
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Post by moxohol on Jul 14, 2020 12:17:06 GMT
Strength - you have it or you don't. .... and it's all functional because it moves your body and holds your skeleton together. The word pairing of "functional strength" is redundant. It would be like calling an oak tree a "wooden oak tree". Years ago when I began going to trade school I worked as a laborer for a tree service on my days off and after school whenever they needed me. When I first started working there I could Bench Press over 400 pounds, and most of my other lifts were on par, I don't remember exact poundage's but I could overhead press, row and curl a good amount of weight... However, when it came to "functional strength" on the job, let's just say that I was nowhere near the strongest guy on the tree service crew when it came to doing tree work, the gym weights had minimal 'carryover', thus were less "functional". It was only after working there for a period of time that I began getting stronger in the specific tasks I did on the job. In 'Rock, Iron, Steel' Steve Justa tells the story about when he worked for a 'custom' hay bailer, and how all the prior weightlifting he had done didn't seem to help him in his new job one bit. I think it was in the 'Aerobic Isometrics' chapter (?)... The "SAID Principle": Specific Adaptions to Imposed Demands
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Post by jrmeatplow on Jul 14, 2020 12:29:31 GMT
I think focusing on strength endurance will provide much more work type strength than something that focuses on max strength.
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pierinifitness
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Post by pierinifitness on Jul 14, 2020 14:58:03 GMT
Part of strength endurance comes from performing the activity efficiently and breathing. Using unnecessary muscles will tank endurance quickly, as will holding your breath. Have you ever seen someone lift something sort of heavy that they're not accustomed to lifting? They may be holding their breath and shrugging their traps while not having the best hold position and alignment of the object in relation to their body. This alone would put them at higher risk of injury. Like that internet character who injured himself while removing a suitcase from the overhead storage space on an airplane. Old timers will know who I'm talking about.
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Post by Magnus on Jul 14, 2020 16:10:39 GMT
Years ago when I began going to trade school I worked as a laborer for a tree service on my days off and after school whenever they needed me. When I first started working there I could Bench Press over 400 pounds, and most of my other lifts were on par, I don't remember exact poundage's but I could overhead press, row and curl a good amount of weight... However, when it came to "functional strength" on the job, let's just say that I was nowhere near the strongest guy on the tree service crew when it came to doing tree work, the gym weights had minimal 'carryover', thus were less "functional". It was only after working there for a period of time that I began getting stronger in the specific tasks I did on the job. In 'Rock, Iron, Steel' Steve Justa tells the story about when he worked for a 'custom' hay bailer, and how all the prior weightlifting he had done didn't seem to help him in his new job one bit. I think it was in the 'Aerobic Isometrics' chapter (?)... The "SAID Principle": Specific Adaptions to Imposed Demands Yes, weight training wasn't as 'functional' as aerobic isometrics as far as Justa's job was concerned.
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Post by Magnus on Jul 14, 2020 16:12:01 GMT
I think focusing on strength endurance will provide much more work type strength than something that focuses on max strength. Yep, I agree.
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Post by fastfor40 on Jul 15, 2020 11:54:25 GMT
Years ago I read an article by Fred Howell (I believe that was his name)who was an advocate of heavy, limited ROM training to build ligament strength, and he told of a young weightlifter who worked for a logging company one summer, and was amazed and chagrined that even though he was capable of lifting hundreds of pounds, on his first few days on the job the older workers were easily picking up and carrying/holding logs that he struggled with, and he wondered why his weight-trained strength had not prepared him for this kind of work.
The kicker was that after a few weeks the young guy was outdoing the veterans.
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