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Post by justregularguy on Mar 11, 2019 18:09:15 GMT
Please.. train your damn external rotators. It's the single most overlooked muscle. It's also the most important muscle to keep your shoulder healthy and functional.
Internal rotation doesn't need to be trained. This muscle is usually overtrained by tons of bench presses, push ups, shoulder presses or everyday stuff like putting your arms on a desk for hours.
It's the external rotation that everyone should train. It doesn't matter who you are and how strong you are, you keep ignoring this muscle, you will eventually hit a wall and injure yourself. Every fitness expert agrees on this. It's not even debatable. That's why you see even top athletes like Larry Wheels, Thor Bjornson, Conor McGregor etc. train this very small muscle that you cannot even see from the outside.
Same could be said about the lower traps, super important for every overhead exercise. The problem is that a shoulder press does NOT train your lower traps. However, to stabilize the scapula and keep that space between humerus and acronium while your perform an overhead press you need strong lower traps. You can also compromise the hell out of your shoulder and do it regardless. That's why some people feel shoulder pain doing overhead presses. Their lower traps are weak!
Strong external rotators and lower traps = healthy shoulder. It's really that simple. They both assist your shoulder to keep that space between humerus head and acromion.
Train your lower traps and external rotators, do some quality reps with high volume, low weight at the end of each workout and you're good.
It's so easy to prevent shoulder problems if you know how to prevent it. Peace out
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Chandu the Magician
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Post by Chandu the Magician on Mar 11, 2019 18:52:03 GMT
I would agree whole heartedly with what you say.
The other parts in addition to training the rotator cuff area properly is don't do movements that are not good for you. Movements that you can tolerate also change over time. When I was 20 and had rubber joints, it didn't much matter what the hell I did, but I now realize that some of the issues I deal with now, are most likely a direct result of poor exercise choices and methods 30 years ago.
I have very long forearms in relation to my upper arm so you can imagine what a full pushup looks like for me, or a dip all the way down so if doing anything like a full pushup I keep my elbow well in.
I only dip until I have 90 degrees at the elbow and I do precious few of them
I no longer do full to the chest bench press motions. I free weight bench in a power rack and set the catch pins about 3 inches off my chest. Machines with adjustable handles are adjusted so the movement starts off my chest by about that amount.
I used to go heavy on overhead presses. They didn't bother my shoulders, but they don't really work them either. Given my long forearms, overhead press is more of a tricep movement unless I take what I consider to be a biomechanically poor wide grip..
For me flye movements are much better for my shoulders and I use weights and cables to direct the resistance as needed.
Longer armed lifters need to watch out on pressing motions in general. When you get to the bottom of the motion your shoulders are going to be in a weak and vulnerable position, much more so than the guy with short arms. (arm length in general matters, but forearm length is the more important. In my opinion long forearms and full range pressing motions are not a great combo.) Those long forearms are great for arm wrestling though.
It's interesting in the last few years we're finally starting to see more articles about strength training that are tailored to limb lengths and the biomechanics thereof.
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Post by mr potatohead on Mar 12, 2019 2:13:38 GMT
Is this your original text in the LP, jrg?
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Post by justregularguy on Mar 12, 2019 14:15:56 GMT
Is this your original text in the LP, jrg? What does LP mean? Amen to that! This full range of motion stuff is CRAP! Doesn't apply to everyone. Never had, never will. People keep preaching full range = Shoulder Health like it's a fact. NO! Not for everyone! I do full range with my long ass orangutan arms, I hurt myself. |
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Post by mr potatohead on Mar 12, 2019 15:11:23 GMT
Is this your original text in the LP, jrg? What does LP mean? LP: "Lead Post" OP: "Original Post" or "Opening Post" Both acronyms refer to the first post that begins a thread when used in that context. So, is it your original text? I ask because you have posted it as if it is your own original writing. If you have copied this from another, it is good practice to include links to the content being quoted. |
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Post by fredhutch on Mar 12, 2019 16:34:27 GMT
While we're rotating, let's also remember to train the internal and external rotators of the thigh. Talk about neglected muscles...I learned this from Paul Zaichek and I always include them.
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Post by justregularguy on Mar 12, 2019 16:46:25 GMT
Everything I post here are my thoughts typed down. I've been working on "reparing" my shoulder for a couple years now. I was in a phase where I kinda accepted it like "it is what it is" and lived with it for maybe 4 years until I finally decided to do something about it. If I had a proper doctor back then who told me straight away what it was, I'm sure the rehabilitating process would be much faster.
I watched tons of youtube videos, read many articles and blog posts and tried out tons of different things. What made by far the biggest difference and allowed for the most progress in rehabilitating my bad shoulder was to strengthen the external rotators and lower traps. I train them with various exercises and from different angles pretty much every day. If anyone here has shoulder problems, I'm sure you will profit from training those two muscles groups.
I'm now at a point where my shoulder doesn't hurt or bother me anymore in daily life. The constant pain is gone. Only when I do push exercises I still feel it but that's gotten better too. I'll keep working on it until it's 100%
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Post by mozietoes on Mar 12, 2019 18:03:24 GMT
Any tips on good exercises to strengthen these? |
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Post by justregularguy on Mar 12, 2019 19:40:15 GMT
Any tips on good exercises to strengthen these? External rotators: facepulls or w-raise Great for lower and middle traps, rhomboids and overall scapula stability: Front chest pulls / reverse flys Great for lower traps: y-raises or Pullups / overhead downward pulls or Scapula Pulls There's a million variations of these exercises. Once your understand the motion you can replicate any of these exercises with dumbbells / bands / expanders/ or a cable machine. The motion is the same. The only thing that might change is your body position or you train only one arm at a time instead of both arms simultaneously. I mean you can do a reverse fly with two dumbbells while laying on the bench or you do a front chest pull with an expander/band while standing up. It doesn't matter, it's basically the same motion, both hit the same muscles. Here's a great sequence you can do with dumbbells: General advice for everyone trying to rehabiliate his shoulder / increase shoulder stability with these exercises: - Low weight, high reps. - No sloppy reps, no momentum. You want slow controlled quality reps. That's what will bring you forward. - Work in whatever range of motion feels most confortable to you. Your range will improve longterm, the longer you do these exercises. - Try to do these exercises as often as possible but keep the reps high and the intensity low. - If these exercises feel uncomfortable or even slighty hurt your shoulder, lower the resistance even more. Only do them like every two or three days. Give your body time to adjust and get used to it. No issues? Do multiple sets every day for maximum results. - Number 1 rule: Stay consistent. It only works longterm. |
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Post by chanduthemagician on Mar 13, 2019 6:49:16 GMT
I'm not sure what muscles are involved but something I've added is an isometric pullup type movement where I retract the scapula and hang at arms length for time and also a straight arm movement on a dip station wherein I keep my arms straight and push them down as far as I can, thus raising my body as high as I can.
Those two brothers that do the bodyweight books for Dragondoor recommend those and I find they keep things feeling good.
There is a book called "7 Minute Rotator Cuff Solution" that is out of print. I have the Pdf I can upload if it's not here. It's a good resource on rotator cuff rehab and health.
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Post by justregularguy on Mar 13, 2019 12:16:40 GMT
I'm not sure what muscles are involved but something I've added is an isometric pullup type movement where I retract the scapula and hang at arms length for time and also a straight arm movement on a dip station wherein I keep my arms straight and push them down as far as I can, thus raising my body as high as I can. Those two brothers that do the bodyweight books for Dragondoor recommend those and I find they keep things feeling good. There is a book called "7 Minute Rotator Cuff Solution" that is out of print. I have the Pdf I can upload if it's not here. It's a good resource on rotator cuff rehab and health. Scapula retraction/depression while hanging on a pullup bar. GREAT exercise. Yes try to upload the PDF so everyone on the internet who stumbles upcon this thread can profit from it. That would be dope! |
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Post by mr potatohead on Mar 13, 2019 13:54:45 GMT
General advice for everyone trying to rehabiliate his shoulder / increase shoulder stability with these exercises: - Low weight, high reps. - No sloppy reps, no momentum. You want slow controlled quality reps. That's what will bring you forward. - Work in whatever range of motion feels most confortable to you. Your range will improve longterm, the longer you do these exercises. - Try to do these exercises as often as possible but keep the reps high and the intensity low. - If these exercises feel uncomfortable or even slighty hurt your shoulder, lower the resistance even more. Only do them like every two or three days. Give your body time to adjust and get used to it. No issues? Do multiple sets every day for maximum results. - Number 1 rule: Stay consistent. It only works longterm. In the post preceding the one above, you said: My experience has been quite different, so I cannot endorse your rehabilitation recommendations (in top quote box in this post). What I have found, thanks to Fast, George Jowett, Pete Wagner, Dr John Kirsch and other Sierra forum members, is that stretches under tension, isometrics and holds are the fastest, most effective way to rehab muscle/tendon issues. I learned this after trying to rehab an injured shoulder for over 6 months and then, I read about the Dr Kirsch dead hang cure and Fast's Doorway Isometric OHP. I felt obvious relief in a few days and the problem was forgotten after about 10 days. I could have saved myself a lot of time fucking around if I had known that only a decent amount of tension and no reps at all (other than perhaps a couple very slow partials or pulses/surges) are needed to accomplish what I wanted. I regularly do a stretch as I sit on my stool at the computer where I push my hands straight out to the sides at shoulder level and pull back, tensing the back muscles and slowly raising my arms in increments, stopping to enjoy the tension, sometimes surging, until my arms are pointing overhead and my hands touch, all the while I'm pulling back. This feels great. I do it at undetermined intervals while sitting and when standing or walking. I fully agree with this and replicate the exercises you list in an isometric way, whether yielding or overcoming: There are very few exercises that I do with repetitions and most of those are just routine living tasks. The exercises I do using reps are ones like; sledge striking, loaded carries, weighted swings, Qigong arm swinging and Alternating Arm DB Squat-C&P, but my reps are not anything I would consider "high" relative to the exercise. |
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Post by justregularguy on Mar 13, 2019 15:32:26 GMT
Obviously I'm wrong and you are right Mr Potatohead.
As you've told me, many Sierra forum members agree with you. So I guess I'm.. double wrong?
The nerves I have telling people shoulder exercises that every physical therapist with a name teaches his clients. Unreal. I'll now proceed and message multiple physical therapists including Jeff Cavaliere from Athlean X that strengthening the roator cuffs and lower traps to improve scapular stability is obviously NOT the way to go. They're ALL wrong!
Obviously what he teaches in his videos is WRONG and NOT the way to go. Afterall Mr Potatohead and "other Sierra forum members" cannot edorse the rehabilitation recommendations that he and pretty much any other renowned physical therapist teach.
Seriously though, stretching alone ain't gonna cut if you have an impingement or want to prevent it. You cannot stretch weak muscles strong. There are no shortcuts. I prefer to actually do something about it and strengthen those weaker muscles. Peace out
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Post by mozietoes on Mar 13, 2019 16:57:55 GMT
Any tips on good exercises to strengthen these? External rotators: facepulls or w-raise Great for lower and middle traps, rhomboids and overall scapula stability: Front chest pulls / reverse flys Great for lower traps: y-raises or Pullups / overhead downward pulls or Scapula Pulls There's a million variations of these exercises. Once your understand the motion you can replicate any of these exercises with dumbbells / bands / expanders/ or a cable machine. The motion is the same. The only thing that might change is your body position or you train only one arm at a time instead of both arms simultaneously. I mean you can do a reverse fly with two dumbbells while laying on the bench or you do a front chest pull with an expander/band while standing up. It doesn't matter, it's basically the same motion, both hit the same muscles. Here's a great sequence you can do with dumbbells: General advice for everyone trying to rehabiliate his shoulder / increase shoulder stability with these exercises: - Low weight, high reps. - No sloppy reps, no momentum. You want slow controlled quality reps. That's what will bring you forward. - Work in whatever range of motion feels most confortable to you. Your range will improve longterm, the longer you do these exercises. - Try to do these exercises as often as possible but keep the reps high and the intensity low. - If these exercises feel uncomfortable or even slighty hurt your shoulder, lower the resistance even more. Only do them like every two or three days. Give your body time to adjust and get used to it. No issues? Do multiple sets every day for maximum results. - Number 1 rule: Stay consistent. It only works longterm. Thanks. Really useful info! I used to do Y T and A's. Will start doing those again. Haven't done front chest pulls since I did them too heavy and hurt my upper traps. Will try them again with much lower resistance and higher reps. |
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Post by mr potatohead on Mar 13, 2019 17:45:46 GMT
...... Seriously though, stretching alone ain't gonna cut if you have an impingement or want to prevent it. You cannot stretch weak muscles strong. There are no shortcuts. ...... I'm referring to isometrics and holds as being under the umbrella of stretching. If you notice, my post was specifically addressing the "rehabilitation" part of your post. Like I said, my experience is that isometrics fixed my shoulder issue much quicker than did high reps with light resistance. It was first brought to my attention by a Sierra member, Fastfor40 and the dead hang by Dr Kirsch. Naturally, believe whatever study or guru you like and do whatever works for you. I just like fixing it in a week or two, opposed to trying for two years with high reps/light resistance. I had tried both DBs and bands and progress was v.e.r.y slow. I probably could have stretched out recovery to two years if I hadn't heard the info from Fast and Dr Kirsch. Been there. Done that. Not going back. I've found joint/tendon/muscle issues are aggravated by high reps and/or full ROM, so I avoid them. That's my life. Others can do whatever they like, but something I say here might help someone like me. As the Chandu said, we're not all built the same. I found that what I'm saying worked for me because I did it. No need for you to act snarky. I'm just sharing a POV that is different from yours because it's what worked for me. I like listening to Jeff Cavalier from time to time, but I really don't give a fuck about what he says if it contradicts my experience. BTW, you write very well. I thought your OP was written by a pro instead of just a regular guy. |
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