MBS
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Post by MBS on Jan 27, 2021 0:29:18 GMT
I need to be clear on this. Was not suggesting flexing, posing etc as a replacement for standard time under load strength training, but as a complimentary addition to your preferred method of strength work.
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pierinifitness
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Post by pierinifitness on Jan 27, 2021 0:50:45 GMT
I’ve said this before, doing the DVR thing is like fondling your muscles to get a muscles erection. Quit and you’ll go limp. Need loaded time under tension volume or lifting heavy stuff to get real muscle growth that lasts. Of course, you got to fuel that muscle growth with good eating. Wouldn't the same thing happen if You stopped lifting? I like what I do know but have done the flexing, KSHD(DVR), self-resistance, and isometrics for years. I would agree with Zenqsavant on the benefits of Flexing, and I would put KSHD with the same benefits. I found the same as Mr.Dave when doing KSHD. If I was honest, my muscles never got much bigger if at all and I did not get much stronger if at all. When doing flexing or KSHD all by themselves I lost a little bit of strength picking up external objects. But I do believe that someone that was untrained may have a different experience than myself. But honestly, how much stronger or bigger can someone get after a certain age without getting hurt? If You really think about it, a person can push all the time under tension load or lift heavy all they want but eventually You're not going to progress anymore. I'm not saying someone shouldn't try to get better at what they like but someday it's just not going to happen. There are guys that push heavy weight and whatever else but are no bigger, look no different/special, and in some cases, not much stronger. I do believe in the time under tension thing but no matter what someone does I think the intent/mind muscle connection matters more for muscle growth. If You are just pushing heavy weights and doing high volume sessions that doesn't guarantee muscle growth, maybe more strength. I never looked any different, again maybe got stronger. Yes, I suppose but I believe intuitively that muscle “boners” from DVR work go flaccid sooner than I with TUT volume snd lifting heavy shit. Just mouthing off here, I have no evidence but perhaps some anecdotal experiences.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Jan 27, 2021 1:32:23 GMT
Pierini, I agree with this," Yes, I suppose but I believe intuitively that muscle"boners" from DVR work go flaccid sooner than with TUT volume and lifting heavy shit." I would say because there is no external resistance with KSHD and flexing. In my opinion, they have to be done more often than weights. I would agree with MBS, that they could be a complementary addition but would add as a health benefit. I know what TUT is but what do You mean by TUT volume? Is it when You do lower reps for high volume/time? Just so You know I don't care about getting bigger but I have some questions about muscle growth. I want to learn and like to hear what You and others think on this subject. Please, no scientific studies because I won't read them. Just Your thoughts on the questions.
There are many ways to do TUT right? If You wanted to build muscle how would You go about it? If You stay in the 1-5 rep range can You really build muscle? What if You are stuck and can't lift any heavier? So now You're stuck at the same weight, What do You do? I'm asking this because in the past I've been here. If You remember the mileage thing You talked about in the past. When I've been at these points in the past I would feel an injury lurking around the corner.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jan 27, 2021 5:26:38 GMT
Two lots of KSHD with many years apart. Moving contraction not static. 1) About 1978 I took a reading on my Bullworker exercises as per max compressions and noted them down. Then every day for 2 X 10reps I performed "standard" weight training exercises i.e. squat, deadlift, "bench press", rows both bentover and standing, press, curl, simply with tension without the weights. After two months I took another set of readings on the Bullworker and I could push and pull it further than two months previous. Hadn't touched the BW during the two months. I felt overall pretty good, light, agile. 2) Somewhere in the first half of the last ten years I performed about 3-4 months of the classic chest expander stretches i.e. Front Pull, Lateral Raise, Overhead Pulldown, Front/Back Press, Curl, True Archers Pull, (what I call the Big Six of strandpulling). Two sets 8 reps each, the first set sub-max tension to "warm up", the second set as full tension as I could make it. No leg exercises. Every second day. After that time I could pull the expander(s) out easier and/or more springs/cables, as if I had been training with them for the 3-4 months. I drew no conclusions from the two regimes, except that KSHD is a worthwhile exercise protocol if one likes to do them. No comparisons with weights except that the KSHD (that I did) was far less tiring on the nervous system. Two advantages I DID note re the mock-strandpulling (I visualized the German guy's enormous home-built seven spring expander he uses on the Expanderkrank site) was more range of movement, the fists starting the "pull" together, instead of having to start at whatever the spring or cable set length + handles dictated. The other advantage was that "max" tension could be applied right from the start of the arc, not gradually becoming harder the further the springs/cables are stretched. And the arms brought back in from the sides under max tension, not easing up towards the center. It should be noted that Maxick was in fact very sick when he was a child, had home built weights he made destroyed by his father (the medical trend in those days was that one who is weak and sick should not exercise) and built himself up with isolation tension exercises, i.e. instead of (say) a bicep curl that uses conventional tension from the opposing triceps, one learns to just tense the biceps and nothing else. That is reflected in Bolton's book on light dumbbell training, where only the biceps (for example) is tensed, not using the opposing triceps as resistance. There are several styles of kung fu drills also, that use muscle tension (Iron Wire for one) and some trainers even use slight to demanding tension on the simple Baduanjin Eight Brocade exercises. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yijin_Jing This set has been traditionally performed with tension, and the effects on health and strength when practised regularly is said to be dramatic. In my opinion, the Mind is focused on the exercises and tension thereof, not on the Chi/Life Force as in relaxed Chi Kung. Therefore whether the Yi Jin Jing is a form of "hard chi kung" remains debatable. I see no reason to doubt its benefits however, given the timespan and wide use by the Shaolin monks, who are traditionally very fit and strong, if not of "bodybuilding focus". And Harry Wong's "Dynamic Strength". Movement under tension for muscle-building and strength. A popular book released sometime around 1980 under the title "Dynamic Tension", soon to be changed because of copyright infringement via the Charles Atlas crew. His later edition (which I have) shows a vastly improved physique on the cover. Shen's 'Kin Shi-Hai Do', a free course in muscle building through moving muscle tension, certainly a classic of its type. Worth screen-shooting and filing by anyone interested in the culture of equipment-less training.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jan 27, 2021 8:05:26 GMT
I know it's a bit off-topic of the pose/muscle-building, but I think for info's sake, other static and moving muscle tensing exercise protocols should be outlined.
The Kiveloffs of course are well-known now, and have featured on here before. Primarily an anti-aging and HBP-reducing simple full-body tensing for 6-7 seconds, the breath kept low and even, three reps, about two to three times a day.
On here pdfdrive.com Mantak Chia's book "Iron Shirt Chi Kung 1" can be downloaded for free and on about page 145, under "Power Exercise" a detailed muscle-tensing tutorial describes Taoist emotional and Chi interpretations of the various muscles that can be tensed individually, then combined in one high horse stance with arms down and slightly out from the body for a 30-60 second tension.
For a start, even though the interpretations are interesting, I would NOT hold the breath for that time, or for ANY time whatsoever. Just cool it to (say) 20 seconds tension and breath as low and normally as possible. Never hold the breath under tension unless it's just a split-second to get a barbell to the shoulders etc.
It's worth the study though, isometric muscle-tensing designed to calm the emotions and promote Chi-flow on release of the rather long tensions outlined.
Finally, the Blood Service put out what amounts to a Kiveloff on a plastic-enclosed single sheet, to be performed after donating blood, while one is still resting on the bed after the needle is withdrawn. That didn't last long and I suspect that donors didn't really know much about muscle-tensing and started holding their breath through the exercise, making things a bit dodgy. A good idea, but scrapped within about three months.
The idea once again was to lower the blood pressure.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2021 10:48:32 GMT
I do both. After my 3 sets of resistance work I finish off with a no-weight flexing/pump set. Best of both worlds then.
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Post by gruntbrain on Jan 27, 2021 11:19:04 GMT
KSHDs can serve both as a warm up and cool down to a "real" workout .
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moxohol
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Post by moxohol on Jan 27, 2021 18:26:03 GMT
Flexing is only as good as the effort put into it like anything else. What gives flexing its major benefits is the synchronicity of tensing the antagonist & agonist muscles which produces an occlusion effect much like KAATSU does. I sit while crossing ankles & tense up in 20s pulses for 2 to 3 reps & then repeat leaning up against the wall with one slightly bent knee & leverage the opposite knee together while pressing the heel against the wall. The daily total is 4 or more sets. I've derived more benefit from tensing as hard as I can in the stretched positions then I did actively squatting or locking into an OCI of the same. At least, that's been my personal experience as a 59 year old dude. Your mileage may vary. =================================== Build Size & Strength With Isometric Co-Contractions: 4% Increase in Arm Circumference and ~20% More Strength With Less Than 10 Minutes of "Flexing" Per Week - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone suppversity.blogspot.com/2013/12/build-size-strength-with-isometric-co.html?m=1
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captkronos
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Post by captkronos on Jan 30, 2021 10:34:59 GMT
I have found that these will get you very firm if done daily, while they may not develop new strength or size, the "hardness" of the muscle, or muscle tone, is a less glamorous aspect of muscular development and not something dudes typically focus on. We think in terms of bigger/stronger as how muscle is graded.
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Bob50
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Post by Bob50 on Jan 30, 2021 17:09:46 GMT
As an experiment, I tried to perform weight lifting exercises with my 20 lb dumbbells for one week. It was no big deal to perform different dumbbell exercises after high tension self resistance training (SRT), but it was not comparison in feelings. I did not feel the amazing CNS and muscle stimulation that I usually got from high tension SRT, and I stopped this experiment. I just was not emotionally/energetically satisfied by these workouts. I think SR creates CNS effects in organism like isometrics, but it is more powerful to stimulate muscle growth.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jan 30, 2021 19:54:34 GMT
As an experiment, I tied to perform weight lifting exercises with my 20 lb dumbbells for one week. It was no big deal to perform different dumbbell exercises after high tension self resistance training (SRT), but it was not comparison in feelings. I did not feel the amazing CNS and muscle stimulation that I usually got from high tension SRT, and I stopped this experiment. I just was not emotionally/energetically satisfied by these workouts. I think SR creates CNS effects in organism like isometrics, but it is more powerful to stimulate muscle growth. I can understand that. After my KSHD-style "strandpulling" experiment posted above, the strands (whether springs or cables) never felt as "satisfying" again, as they had before.
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Bob50
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Post by Bob50 on Jan 30, 2021 20:25:02 GMT
You are right, Macky. It looks, when our brain creates and simultaneously overcomes high muscle tension, CNS/muscle stimulation is more powerful. The partial blood occlusion in muscles due continuous high muscle tension through the ROMs adds effect.
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Post by zenqsavant on Jan 30, 2021 22:39:13 GMT
I wonder if it's due to the various apparatuses being fixed in resistance..there's also varying degrees in the resistance curve of gravity and leverage points..and also your locked into a motor movement pattern. with resistance excercises theres a continual application of force and freedom of movement on the trajectory and movement path that follows the structures natural biomechanics and kinesiology...and I believe it creates a motor deliciousness as said by Dr. Leonard Schwartz about his isotonometrics..where anything else would feel not as stimulating and mundane..
I can attest as well trying to use various external apparatuses after learning the self resistance methods..feels as though there's a physiological rewiring..
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Post by mr potatohead on Jan 30, 2021 23:31:39 GMT
I pushed some of the sentences together from the linked text, but I don't think I messed it up? George Jowett is where I learned that overcoming isos favor tendon strength/growth over muscle growth and how making that base strong, to anchor the muscle built, is important.
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