Micro tears in the muscle fiber

[cas9]

Whenever one exercises the strain introduces small micro-tears to the muscles, the process of healing these micro-tears builds and strengthens the muscles. Now I wonder regarding Vrt or Self resistance it's often said that these training methods creates a muscle pump without tearing muscle fibers. 

But to achieve muscle growth in any form straining the muscles to a point where micro tears appear are necessary to build the muscle bigger than before. Pumping up the muscle with blood and fluids to supply it more with nutrients can only lead to a temporary "fuller" feeling of the muscle but won't render it permanently larger. To force the body to adapt, micro tears in the fiber are the way to "tell the body" that it needs to repair the muscle fiber thickens them to fulfill the demands from the exercise. And I don't see a reason why for self resistance exercises shouldn't lead to micro tears in the muscle fiber. Don't get me wrong I'm sure self resistance exercises are effective when done correctly. But I don't buy that there is a different adaptation process in the muscles then there is with weight training. In my opinin the human bodys choice to adapt to heavy muscle strain is just the process of reparing those micro tears.

Furthermore I've read an interesting thread from Bruce in which he describes the soreness that he experiences with doing Vrt training. He describes that he feels the soreness in the muscle lagged and feels it the most at the next day and not immediately after the exercise. Previously it was often thought that charley horse/DOMS was due to high lactic acid in the muscles. But recently the scientific opinion seems to shift. The micro tears cause inflammation in the muscles. This inflammation is what causes DOMS. That's another clue for me that even with Vrt there is a certain level of damage to the muscle fibers that the body repairs as a result.

So what is your opinion? Does muscle fiber tear with SR and Vrt exercise microscopic level or doesn't it? And if not why should it work then?

Sorry for my shitty english. I'm not a native speaker

[stuke]

I dont think there is any difference, resistance is resistance. I dont buy the Paul Wade character's views that moving your body through space as in calisthenics provides a better mechanism (for want of a better word) for the muscles.

[Michael]

Cas9, this is an interesting topic. As someone who has done self-resistance almost exclusively in the past, I do believe You can that it can cause the small micro-tears You are talking about. Of course, If You don't use much tension with the other limb then it's not going to do much. But as Stuke said, "resistance is resistance". I have done VRT/KSHD in the past also. I'm not really sure if this causes muscle tears. I would be interested in what others say about VRT/KSHD. My personal opinion is that it's a form of isometrics which I always lost size with. So technically I still believe it's a type of resistance training.

[cas9]

Yes I agree! I think resistance is resistance. And as far as VRT/KSHD there is always the aspect of agonist/antagonist muscles that work against each other. So I see it as possible that there might occur micro tears also.

Think about an electric shock I know a guy that works for a railroad company in my country. His workmate unfortunately got an electric shock and his bicep tensed so hard that it teared apart

[Michael]

Cas9 here is something I found. From my own personal experience, I agree with the part," Strength, Not Size". I always lost size and weight.

www.exercise.co.uk/learn/the-benefits-of-isometric-exercise/#:~:text=The%20size%20of%20the%20muscle%20you%20are%20training,would%20see%20from%20weight%20training%20in%20other%20ways.

[cas9]

Another example that came to my mind just now: When new guys come to our boxing gym especially men who look quite fit and muscular they are often already exhausted after a shadow boxing warm up. And their movement often looks quite slow and "robotic". But with time the motions become faster and more fluid.

My theory is that their body "understands" that it needs to let lose for a fast punch. And at the beginning the tension in the resisting muscles is just to strong and breaks the speed of their punches. But boxing beginners often get sore muscles from shadow boxing alone.

@michael thanks for your article very interesting! But with VRT/ Self reistance exercise you have a concentric and and an eccentric movements in contrast to isometrics

[brothersteve]

Oct 24, 2020 13:31:46 GMT cas9 said:

Whenever one exercises the strain introduces small micro-tears to the muscles, the process of healing these micro-tears builds and strengthens the muscles. Now I wonder regarding Vrt or Self resistance it's often said that these training methods creates a muscle pump without tearing muscle fibers. 

But to achieve muscle growth in any form straining the muscles to a point where micro tears appear are necessary to build the muscle bigger than before. Pumping up the muscle with blood and fluids to supply it more with nutrients can only lead to a temporary "fuller" feeling of the muscle but won't render it permanently larger. To force the body to adapt, micro tears in the fiber are the way to "tell the body" that it needs to repair the muscle fiber thickens them to fulfill the demands from the exercise. And I don't see a reason why for self resistance exercises shouldn't lead to micro tears in the muscle fiber. Don't get me wrong I'm sure self resistance exercises are effective when done correctly. But I don't buy that there is a different adaptation process in the muscles then there is with weight training. In my opinin the human bodys choice to adapt to heavy muscle strain is just the process of reparing those micro tears.

Furthermore I've read an interesting thread from Bruce in which he describes the soreness that he experiences with doing Vrt training. He describes that he feels the soreness in the muscle lagged and feels it the most at the next day and not immediately after the exercise. Previously it was often thought that charley horse/DOMS was due to high lactic acid in the muscles. But recently the scientific opinion seems to shift. The micro tears cause inflammation in the muscles. This inflammation is what causes DOMS. That's another clue for me that even with Vrt there is a certain level of damage to the muscle fibers that the body repairs as a result.

So what is your opinion? Does muscle fiber tear with SR and Vrt exercise microscopic level or doesn't it? And if not why should it work then?

Sorry for my shitty english. I'm not a native speaker

I believe my soreness is from muscle tears with SR and VRT.

For a long time now, I do mostly static contraction exercises held in positions of greatest contraction for each muscle and hold it hard as possible. I get no pump, but can get sore if I go longer than about 72 hours between working the same muscles. Pump, for me, only occurs with range of motion exercises. I do a short list of exercises less often that are virtualized resistance (VRT) where I tense the muscles and go through a range of positive and negative. Tensing doing these very hard gives me a little pump, but my speed of movement is about 1.5 seconds each direction. Slower speed makes a greater pump for me - like 6 seconds up and down each rep. I can get sore from these as well initially, but once on a regular schedule then I don't.

Soreness to me is that I'm not in shape to do something as much as I want, which are the tears and lactic acid IF I am doing endurance stuff. . I've only felt sore the same day when I was young. Now (age 54) I will feel it a day or 2 (most usually) later and it lasts for several days.

I think one can cause tears from any form of training; isotonic, isokinetic , isometric, but not all will result in size increases. I do firmly believe static holds will increase strength, but not stamina no matter how long you hold, but won't turn anyone into a bodybuilder or strong weightlifter. You are only good at what you practice, hard pectoral contractions won't help you bench 500 lbs. For me, they feel good and work my muscles without making old injuries hurt and make my muscles harder than when I weight trained (they felt hard then, but not like now).

Your English looks great to me.

[brothersteve]

Oct 24, 2020 16:52:51 GMT cas9 said:

Another example that came to my mind just now: When new guys come to our boxing gym especially men who look quite fit and muscular they are often already exhausted after a shadow boxing warm up. And their movement often looks quite slow and "robotic". But with time the motions become faster and more fluid.

My theory is that their body "understands" that it needs to let lose for a fast punch. And at the beginning the tension in the resisting muscles is just to strong and breaks the speed of their punches. But boxing beginners often get sore muscles from shadow boxing alone.

@michael thanks for your article very interesting! But with VRT/ Self reistance exercise you have a concentric and and an eccentric movements in contrast to isometrics

When I began amateur boxing many decades ago it was after lifting weights and I found that I became more fatigued and my punches lost that 'snap' in later rounds because I was tensing trying to muscle the punch, not just throw it and twist my hips into it using positive force only.

It's like Maxalding where Maxick talked about the relaxing of the non-using muscles in a lift that enables him to lift more by relaxing the unused muscles.

[brothersteve]

Oct 24, 2020 16:27:50 GMT Michael said:

Cas9 here is something I found. From my own personal experience, I agree with the part," Strength, Not Size". I always lost size and weight.

www.exercise.co.uk/learn/the-benefits-of-isometric-exercise/#:~:text=The%20size%20of%20the%20muscle%20you%20are%20training,would%20see%20from%20weight%20training%20in%20other%20ways.

I read the whole thing, but do feel that if you put the bones in arrangement to create a peak (not in a plank or pushup position) isometric contraction, then you can make small tears and get sore. I can hold a non-peak contracted position for a long time and the lactic acid is what will make me sore.

I think the article is incorrect when it says the bottom of the squat is a peak contraction like the top of a bicep concentration curl. Frontal quad peak contraction would be from a seated leg extension. Bottom squat is fully stretched.

Speaking of stretching, ballistic stretching can cause small tears as well without making the muscle bigger or stronger.

[Michael]

Oct 24, 2020 16:52:51 GMT cas9 said:

Another example that came to my mind just now: When new guys come to our boxing gym especially men who look quite fit and muscular they are often already exhausted after a shadow boxing warm up. And their movement often looks quite slow and "robotic". But with time the motions become faster and more fluid.

My theory is that their body "understands" that it needs to let lose for a fast punch. And at the beginning the tension in the resisting muscles is just to strong and breaks the speed of their punches. But boxing beginners often get sore muscles from shadow boxing alone.

@michael thanks for your article very interesting! But with VRT/ Self reistance exercise you have a concentric and and an eccentric movements in contrast to isometrics

, Cas9, I don't know why but I was thinking of power flexes or whatever they call them here, I made a mistake. Yeah they both have a concentric and eccentric movement. But only self resistance has a external resistance via the limb. 

[Michael]

Oct 24, 2020 21:31:12 GMT brothersteve said:

Oct 24, 2020 16:27:50 GMT Michael said:

Cas9 here is something I found. From my own personal experience, I agree with the part," Strength, Not Size". I always lost size and weight.

www.exercise.co.uk/learn/the-benefits-of-isometric-exercise/#:~:text=The%20size%20of%20the%20muscle%20you%20are%20training,would%20see%20from%20weight%20training%20in%20other%20ways.

I read the whole thing, but do feel that if you put the bones in arrangement to create a peak (not in a plank or pushup position) isometric contraction, then you can make small tears and get sore. I can hold a non-peak contracted position for a long time and the lactic acid is what will make me sore.

I think the article is incorrect when it says the bottom of the squat is a peak contraction like the top of a bicep concentration curl. Frontal quad peak contraction would be from a seated leg extension. Bottom squat is fully stretched.

Speaking of stretching, ballistic stretching can cause small tears as well without making the muscle bigger or stronger.

I was thinking of power flexing when I said they were a form of isometrics. So being that I made a mistake I probably would have never linked the article if I didn't make the mistake. I did not read the whole article because what I quoted(Strength, Not Size) is what caught my eye and is parallel with my isometric experience. I have done many different protocols with isometrics and never got sore. I have done them to a point where, , central nervous system was burnt out.

[Bob50]

My personal experience in high tension self resistance shows that this method creates the same processes in muscles as weight lifting and may produce significant muscle growth. Isometrics was ineffective for me. Just check my log. 
P.S. I am 70. I think younger people can get much better results. 

[brothersteve]

Oct 24, 2020 21:47:37 GMT Michael said:

Oct 24, 2020 21:31:12 GMT brothersteve said:

I read the whole thing, but do feel that if you put the bones in arrangement to create a peak (not in a plank or pushup position) isometric contraction, then you can make small tears and get sore. I can hold a non-peak contracted position for a long time and the lactic acid is what will make me sore.

I think the article is incorrect when it says the bottom of the squat is a peak contraction like the top of a bicep concentration curl. Frontal quad peak contraction would be from a seated leg extension. Bottom squat is fully stretched.

Speaking of stretching, ballistic stretching can cause small tears as well without making the muscle bigger or stronger.

I was thinking of power flexing when I said they were a form of isometrics. So being that I made a mistake I probably would have never linked the article if I didn't make the mistake. I did not read the whole article because what I quoted(Strength, Not Size) is what caught my eye and is parallel with my isometric experience. I have done many different protocols with isometrics and never got sore. I have done them to a point where, , central nervous system was burnt out.

Thanks for the info.

When you say power flexing do you mean like VRT = flexing and moving through range?

Also, when you did isometrics, was it push/pull against an immovable object in any position (NOT in a max contracted)? 

Even in any position, I got sore on the first workout. That is what drew me to it. I likened the soreness to results. It subsided as I kept working out regularly to where I wasn't sore anymore no matter how long I held the contraction, which made me think it was not helping. I did decrease size/weight which was a priority at the time and went back to weights and pumping which brought the size back.

When I said it's what one practices, I meant I found that if I lifted then did isometrics or VRT max contractions I would be sooo sore again. Then when use to the iso's I went back to weights and got sooo sore with those. I guess that's where the cross fit idea comes in - workout all ways to never be sore, but folks seem to get hurt with that so gotta be careful.

At 54 I only care about keeping functional via useful strength and stamina and feel good in my joints and not get sick. I try to keep at a decent weight for my height/bone structure and fit my clothes. At this point most of my wardrobe is about 30 years old. 

[Michael]

When I say power flexing there is no movement. Think of a bodybuilder flexing in peak contraction.

I have done Isometrics limb against limb and with an isometric strap which I prefer Bruce's Sierra isometric/suspension strap. I mostly did what Bruce refers to as three-point isometrics but have one position isometrics which I didn't feel too fond of. Three-Point Isometrics are the bottom, middle, and top of the movement, think of the military press or bicep curl. I know some people would disagree, which I don't care, but my endurance always seemed to get really good. Whether it was muscle endurance or anaerobic endurance. If I did isometrics too hard or too long, I would have no problem sleeping, . In my own personal experience, I believe they are good for a change of pace, maintenance, getting through a sticking point of an exercise, body strength, and endurance. I'm sure someone will disagree but they are not me so it doesn't matter. I think isometrics are a good way for people to train if they like them. As I've gotten older I just get bored and stiff from just doing isometrics.

[moxohol]

Stiff is an apt description for Isometric applications alone. You'll pull a tendon for sure. As a lad in varsity sports, isometrics was always complimentary not the main course. U did ur isometrics 1st & then hit the weights or sports specific training afterwards. It was the secret sauce for strength & power. It still is but there's something to be said for looks that say, "I shit marble" than a sinewy pencil neck geek that can bend 10 penny nails at parties.