Dave Reslo
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Post by Dave Reslo on Jun 10, 2021 22:10:26 GMT
Are you saying that wealth increases should be currently taxed? If so, if your home goes up in value by $20,000 in one year, are you suggesting that this increase be subject to tax? That's a great idea!
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pierinifitness
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Post by pierinifitness on Jun 11, 2021 0:33:07 GMT
I need to make a correction to my South Dakota trust example in an earlier post where I said the trust wouldn't pay any income tax.
It's true the trust wouldn't pay any state income tax but would be subject to federal income tax. Those federal tax rates creep to top rates rather quickly making trust income retention, rather than distributions to beneficiaries, very tax expensive.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jun 11, 2021 4:19:54 GMT
Here's an article from about a year and a half ago when other States were beginning to copy (in some ways) South Dakota's initiative as a tax haven for the super-rich, and banks etc. www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/14/the-great-american-tax-haven-why-the-super-rich-love-south-dakota-trust-lawsHere's another link to contemplate if you wish americansfortaxfairness.org/tax-fairness-briefing-booklet/fact-sheet-taxing-wealthy-americans/"The rich fellow who evades taxes is no different than the working stiff who does side work on the weekend for cash and doesn't report the income. Have you ever done that?" Of course I have. Not when I was running our business in mid-80's where I kept straight accounts of what we had paid for and the profits thereof, plus receipts for vehicles etc that were purchased to support the business. That was ratified every tax year by a tax consultant and presented to the IRD in a lawful manner. But on the odd occasion such as when I was helping a master builder as a hammer hand and received $100 folding at the end of a 10 hour day I didn't pay any tax on it, not that I wasn't prepared to give the IRD 20% or whatever, but because every time I rang the IRD to ask them the same question i.e what should I pay for casual work? I got a different answer, and often convoluted to the point of insensibility with the IRD person reading to me out of a book of rules over the phone. The same as when I was being paid a nominal $55 per meeting on the School Board Of Trustees. I called into the social welfare dept which was responsible for my Superannuation and was told "just wait for the IRD to send you a tax bill" and that was that. And no, the rich fellow who evades taxes is NOT the same as the working fellow who does side work in the weekend for cash and doesn't report the income. You cannot just put two persons' similar acts into a single definition, because it boils down to a matter of quantity. The weekend fellow evades...what...$100 dollars in tax ? The rich fellow has millions at stake otherwise it wouldn't be worth the risk. The social impact of $100 dollars is paltry compared to $100 million. One person may have been in a fight and in rage killed his opponent. A Nazi war criminal may have killed hundreds of thousand of innocents. By definition, they are both murderers, but there is no question regarding the difference in extent of their crimes. And yes I wouldn't mind paying (say) a 3-5% tax on the sale of my home, providing the amounts that I had spent on doing it up (therefore increasing its value) was adjusted for inflation and some of that tax was rebatable. 25 years ago I bought the house I am in for 123k and immediately spent 45k on renovating the kitchen-dining area and installing sliding doors to the exterior. 10 years ago I had installed more sliding doors down in the back room which was originally an attached garage, and had the room lined and lighted. And in the 25 years since I bought it the value of the house has climbed to around 800k due to inflation and immigration, and the "natural" process of a sprawling big city (not by world standards but still 1.7 million). Obviously I don't expect to pay tax if I'm staying there and using it for the family home, but if I sell it, then I wouldn't mind if the govt took a bit. Before the Traitors took over the country in 1984 and set the scene for the future by privatizing several govt departments which were then sold off in early 90's, and subjecting our workforce to competition with hundreds of millions of dollar-a-day workers in the far east, thereby virtually erasing several industries in NZ, one could get ahead by hard work and careful money-management, because everybody including the govt corporations paid tax on their profits, some of which found its way back to borrowers of mortgages etc. And it was more straight-forward that anything at all that you spent (keeping the receipts of course) on any enterprise that you earned money and paid tax on, was rebatable to a set percentage depending on what it was. Some items were fully rebatable, others according to the decline in market value (age) such as the van I brought for the pottery business. People could get rich here in NZ with their enterprise, but not super-rich. And at the same time, there was a job for everyone who didn't want to go into business, and there was no large poor class of people, except those that chose to live out in the sticks, more or less off-grid. There wasn't many of those. Now with more global enterprise and the relaxing of countries' restrictions, quite a few have become super-rich, and if they are earning offshore the bulk of their income, and keeping their wealth in Trusts etc, then it's only fair that they pay a LOT more in tax, because with the 1% owning 30-35% of the wealth in America, and the imbalance between rich and poor growing, then every time someone becomes a billionaire, it's in fact a failure of the economy, and a failure of govt to regulate appropriately. Finland for example has become voted the happiest country in the world for the fourth time in a row. Why ? Because nobody is too rich, and nobody is too poor. And I certainly do not base my financial attitudes on a judge's utterances at a single court case. If you're going to use that nonsense as your lifelong money-motto then why have a govt at all? Just go down to the local courthouse and ask Judge Reginald Gobshite Jnr what he thinks about.....well...anything at all, really. And finally, I'll ask again Sir. When you opened this thread and posted that link, did you already know it was wrong, or at least you did not believe it ?
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macky
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Post by macky on Jun 11, 2021 5:04:07 GMT
Here you go, macky. Check it out. Interview with James Sullivan, brother of John Sullivan who stormed the Capitol with his antifa buddies begins @ about 5:00 minutes in. Yesterday, June 9, 2021: Thank mikey. John Sullivan is not antifa or even BLM. He's just a shit-stirrer for his own sake. Other articles about him cite BLM having no arrests in certain places, then having their reputation destroyed in one day by this guy. He's apparently pissed off both ends of the political spectrum. The conservatives are quick to use him as an excuse to blame antifa for the rioting, and I'm not saying you were mistaken by letting me know that your friends ID'd antifa there (as well) on the day. On the other hand, I don't think I've ever said that antifa were not there and "doing their bit" as well as Trump supporters. At the last, anybody who participated in the riot in some way, even if they were let in by Police, should be identified and interviewed by the FBI. If they are found innocent of any wrong doing, then that should quash any rumours going around in their workplace and/or neighbourhood that they were there to do deliberate harm, and give a stamp of authority to their innocence. There is no doubt that Trump supporters were inside and that they were committing violence outside as well. They have been charged and are awaiting trial. If antifa are charged with violence in the same mode, then they face Justice as well. No divisions or political leanings applicable. American democracy was on show that day, and in so many ways it failed the litmus test. And the world looked on in dismay.
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Post by mr potatohead on Jun 11, 2021 10:09:31 GMT
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pierinifitness
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I do burpees, then I drink slurpees
Posts: 2,709
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Post by pierinifitness on Jun 11, 2021 15:10:03 GMT
Here's an article from about a year and a half ago when other States were beginning to copy (in some ways) South Dakota's initiative as a tax haven for the super-rich, and banks etc. www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/14/the-great-american-tax-haven-why-the-super-rich-love-south-dakota-trust-lawsHere's another link to contemplate if you wish americansfortaxfairness.org/tax-fairness-briefing-booklet/fact-sheet-taxing-wealthy-americans/"The rich fellow who evades taxes is no different than the working stiff who does side work on the weekend for cash and doesn't report the income. Have you ever done that?" Of course I have. Not when I was running our business in mid-80's where I kept straight accounts of what we had paid for and the profits thereof, plus receipts for vehicles etc that were purchased to support the business. That was ratified every tax year by a tax consultant and presented to the IRD in a lawful manner. But on the odd occasion such as when I was helping a master builder as a hammer hand and received $100 folding at the end of a 10 hour day I didn't pay any tax on it, not that I wasn't prepared to give the IRD 20% or whatever, but because every time I rang the IRD to ask them the same question i.e what should I pay for casual work? I got a different answer, and often convoluted to the point of insensibility with the IRD person reading to me out of a book of rules over the phone. The same as when I was being paid a nominal $55 per meeting on the School Board Of Trustees. I called into the social welfare dept which was responsible for my Superannuation and was told "just wait for the IRD to send you a tax bill" and that was that. And no, the rich fellow who evades taxes is NOT the same as the working fellow who does side work in the weekend for cash and doesn't report the income. You cannot just put two persons' similar acts into a single definition, because it boils down to a matter of quantity. The weekend fellow evades...what...$100 dollars in tax ? The rich fellow has millions at stake otherwise it wouldn't be worth the risk. The social impact of $100 dollars is paltry compared to $100 million. One person may have been in a fight and in rage killed his opponent. A Nazi war criminal may have killed hundreds of thousand of innocents. By definition, they are both murderers, but there is no question regarding the difference in extent of their crimes. And yes I wouldn't mind paying (say) a 3-5% tax on the sale of my home, providing the amounts that I had spent on doing it up (therefore increasing its value) was adjusted for inflation and some of that tax was rebatable. 25 years ago I bought the house I am in for 123k and immediately spent 45k on renovating the kitchen-dining area and installing sliding doors to the exterior. 10 years ago I had installed more sliding doors down in the back room which was originally an attached garage, and had the room lined and lighted. And in the 25 years since I bought it the value of the house has climbed to around 800k due to inflation and immigration, and the "natural" process of a sprawling big city (not by world standards but still 1.7 million). Obviously I don't expect to pay tax if I'm staying there and using it for the family home, but if I sell it, then I wouldn't mind if the govt took a bit. Before the Traitors took over the country in 1984 and set the scene for the future by privatizing several govt departments which were then sold off in early 90's, and subjecting our workforce to competition with hundreds of millions of dollar-a-day workers in the far east, thereby virtually erasing several industries in NZ, one could get ahead by hard work and careful money-management, because everybody including the govt corporations paid tax on their profits, some of which found its way back to borrowers of mortgages etc. And it was more straight-forward that anything at all that you spent (keeping the receipts of course) on any enterprise that you earned money and paid tax on, was rebatable to a set percentage depending on what it was. Some items were fully rebatable, others according to the decline in market value (age) such as the van I brought for the pottery business. People could get rich here in NZ with their enterprise, but not super-rich. And at the same time, there was a job for everyone who didn't want to go into business, and there was no large poor class of people, except those that chose to live out in the sticks, more or less off-grid. There wasn't many of those. Now with more global enterprise and the relaxing of countries' restrictions, quite a few have become super-rich, and if they are earning offshore the bulk of their income, and keeping their wealth in Trusts etc, then it's only fair that they pay a LOT more in tax, because with the 1% owning 30-35% of the wealth in America, and the imbalance between rich and poor growing, then every time someone becomes a billionaire, it's in fact a failure of the economy, and a failure of govt to regulate appropriately. Finland for example has become voted the happiest country in the world for the fourth time in a row. Why ? Because nobody is too rich, and nobody is too poor. And I certainly do not base my financial attitudes on a judge's utterances at a single court case. If you're going to use that nonsense as your lifelong money-motto then why have a govt at all? Just go down to the local courthouse and ask Judge Reginald Gobshite Jnr what he thinks about.....well...anything at all, really. And finally, I'll ask again Sir. When you opened this thread and posted that link, did you already know it was wrong, or at least you did not believe it ? Macky, acknowledging receipt. I'll give you a thoughtful reply when I have time to compose one. Enjoy your day.
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pierinifitness
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I do burpees, then I drink slurpees
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Post by pierinifitness on Jun 11, 2021 22:43:34 GMT
Here's an article from about a year and a half ago when other States were beginning to copy (in some ways) South Dakota's initiative as a tax haven for the super-rich, and banks etc. www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/14/the-great-american-tax-haven-why-the-super-rich-love-south-dakota-trust-lawsHere's another link to contemplate if you wish americansfortaxfairness.org/tax-fairness-briefing-booklet/fact-sheet-taxing-wealthy-americans/"The rich fellow who evades taxes is no different than the working stiff who does side work on the weekend for cash and doesn't report the income. Have you ever done that?" Of course I have. Not when I was running our business in mid-80's where I kept straight accounts of what we had paid for and the profits thereof, plus receipts for vehicles etc that were purchased to support the business. That was ratified every tax year by a tax consultant and presented to the IRD in a lawful manner. But on the odd occasion such as when I was helping a master builder as a hammer hand and received $100 folding at the end of a 10 hour day I didn't pay any tax on it, not that I wasn't prepared to give the IRD 20% or whatever, but because every time I rang the IRD to ask them the same question i.e what should I pay for casual work? I got a different answer, and often convoluted to the point of insensibility with the IRD person reading to me out of a book of rules over the phone. The same as when I was being paid a nominal $55 per meeting on the School Board Of Trustees. I called into the social welfare dept which was responsible for my Superannuation and was told "just wait for the IRD to send you a tax bill" and that was that. And no, the rich fellow who evades taxes is NOT the same as the working fellow who does side work in the weekend for cash and doesn't report the income. You cannot just put two persons' similar acts into a single definition, because it boils down to a matter of quantity. The weekend fellow evades...what...$100 dollars in tax ? The rich fellow has millions at stake otherwise it wouldn't be worth the risk. The social impact of $100 dollars is paltry compared to $100 million. One person may have been in a fight and in rage killed his opponent. A Nazi war criminal may have killed hundreds of thousand of innocents. By definition, they are both murderers, but there is no question regarding the difference in extent of their crimes. And yes I wouldn't mind paying (say) a 3-5% tax on the sale of my home, providing the amounts that I had spent on doing it up (therefore increasing its value) was adjusted for inflation and some of that tax was rebatable. 25 years ago I bought the house I am in for 123k and immediately spent 45k on renovating the kitchen-dining area and installing sliding doors to the exterior. 10 years ago I had installed more sliding doors down in the back room which was originally an attached garage, and had the room lined and lighted. And in the 25 years since I bought it the value of the house has climbed to around 800k due to inflation and immigration, and the "natural" process of a sprawling big city (not by world standards but still 1.7 million). Obviously I don't expect to pay tax if I'm staying there and using it for the family home, but if I sell it, then I wouldn't mind if the govt took a bit. Before the Traitors took over the country in 1984 and set the scene for the future by privatizing several govt departments which were then sold off in early 90's, and subjecting our workforce to competition with hundreds of millions of dollar-a-day workers in the far east, thereby virtually erasing several industries in NZ, one could get ahead by hard work and careful money-management, because everybody including the govt corporations paid tax on their profits, some of which found its way back to borrowers of mortgages etc. And it was more straight-forward that anything at all that you spent (keeping the receipts of course) on any enterprise that you earned money and paid tax on, was rebatable to a set percentage depending on what it was. Some items were fully rebatable, others according to the decline in market value (age) such as the van I brought for the pottery business. People could get rich here in NZ with their enterprise, but not super-rich. And at the same time, there was a job for everyone who didn't want to go into business, and there was no large poor class of people, except those that chose to live out in the sticks, more or less off-grid. There wasn't many of those. Now with more global enterprise and the relaxing of countries' restrictions, quite a few have become super-rich, and if they are earning offshore the bulk of their income, and keeping their wealth in Trusts etc, then it's only fair that they pay a LOT more in tax, because with the 1% owning 30-35% of the wealth in America, and the imbalance between rich and poor growing, then every time someone becomes a billionaire, it's in fact a failure of the economy, and a failure of govt to regulate appropriately. Finland for example has become voted the happiest country in the world for the fourth time in a row. Why ? Because nobody is too rich, and nobody is too poor. And I certainly do not base my financial attitudes on a judge's utterances at a single court case. If you're going to use that nonsense as your lifelong money-motto then why have a govt at all? Just go down to the local courthouse and ask Judge Reginald Gobshite Jnr what he thinks about.....well...anything at all, really. And finally, I'll ask again Sir. When you opened this thread and posted that link, did you already know it was wrong, or at least you did not believe it ? Macky, want to make one last post before we move on. I believe this discussion has become too technical for a real fitness forum, at least my two cents has. I believe the facts of the article but not the opinion slant. And, I think it's deplorable for the media to come in possession of confidential taxpayer records and exploit it for clickbait. I believe them rich fellas paid the amount of taxes the article indicated but I also believe their tax reporting was totally proper but just the result of taking advantage of existing tax law and having good hired guns tax professionals to see that they paid the least amount of tax. Rich folks generally own lots of real estate and pay lots of real estate taxes on the property. They also own boats and yachts and there are property taxes associated with ownership. They buy lots of cars, fancy furniture and other gadgets subject to what we call sales tax so they pay lots of sales tax. Additionally, they employ lots of people, servants, housekeepers, gardeners, bodyguards. As an employer, they pay employer payroll taxes on the wages paid to their hired help. Finally, because of the size of their wealth, their estate is subject to a federal estate tax and some states also have a similar tax or an inheritance tax. I just did a search and learned that New Zealand doesn't have an estate or inheritance tax. In short, they pay a heck of a lot more taxes that the article indicates. So does President Trump despite that stupid news stories a couple years ago saying how he didn't pay any or much income tax. On a different day at a different place, I could give you a very convincing presentation, using my technical knowledge, why those articles are fake. But, instead, let's talk about burpees. End of discussion. It was fun while it lasted. Enjoy your weekend.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jun 12, 2021 7:50:17 GMT
Macky, want to make one last post before we move on. I believe this discussion has become too technical for a real fitness forum, at least my two cents has. I believe the facts of the article but not the opinion slant. And, I think it's deplorable for the media to come in possession of confidential taxpayer records and exploit it for clickbait. I believe them rich fellas paid the amount of taxes the article indicated but I also believe their tax reporting was totally proper but just the result of taking advantage of existing tax law and having good hired guns tax professionals to see that they paid the least amount of tax. Rich folks generally own lots of real estate and pay lots of real estate taxes on the property. They also own boats and yachts and there are property taxes associated with ownership. They buy lots of cars, fancy furniture and other gadgets subject to what we call sales tax so they pay lots of sales tax. Additionally, they employ lots of people, servants, housekeepers, gardeners, bodyguards. As an employer, they pay employer payroll taxes on the wages paid to their hired help. Finally, because of the size of their wealth, their estate is subject to a federal estate tax and some states also have a similar tax or an inheritance tax. I just did a search and learned that New Zealand doesn't have an estate or inheritance tax. In short, they pay a heck of a lot more taxes that the article indicates. So does President Trump despite that stupid news stories a couple years ago saying how he didn't pay any or much income tax. On a different day at a different place, I could give you a very convincing presentation, using my technical knowledge, why those articles are fake. But, instead, let's talk about burpees. End of discussion. It was fun while it lasted. Enjoy your weekend. All good. You too pierini. I'll be interested to keep informed how you're going with the burpees, for one thing. It's always interesting to know how a senior middle-age guy is getting on. By 'senior' I mean 'experienced'.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jun 12, 2021 7:55:43 GMT
So what's so face-palming about what I said ? Surely you don't believe the Capitol riot was justified ? It was an utter disgrace. For those that were let in by some police, there were many more who engaged in violent behaviour. Book em' and as for that idiot who brought molotov's to town in his van, make sure he's never outside again. Vicious bastard.
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Post by mr potatohead on Jun 12, 2021 20:05:03 GMT
1. ...... There is no doubt that Trump supporters were .............. committing violence outside as well. They have been charged and are awaiting trial. .......... 2. American democracy was on show that day, and in so many ways it failed the litmus test. And the world looked on in dismay. Starting with 2. The USA is not a democracy. "The world looked on in dismay" Ha! Yeah, watching, listening and reading the MSM narrative, they were fed what they were supposed to see. 1. Not according to James Sullivan in the video interview I provided. Are you saying that you have evidence that he is lying? I would like to hear or see this evidence. MSM sources are unacceptable, of course, since those who intentionally mix truth + lies (= propaganda) are completely unreliable as evidence providers.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jun 12, 2021 20:34:06 GMT
Technical definitions of what America is or isn't doesn't alter that fact you have elections for often politically-opposed candidates. That's the difference between our countries, and China or Russia. In other words, it's a democratic process. America has long promoted itself as a paragon of "freedom and democracy" round the world. Ha !
And I'm not placing any more belief in a family member giving an interview than any other piece of MSM. In addition, Youtube's an MSM and I've never relied on it for much except music, whereas you seem to present youtube after youtube as some sort of authentic confirmation of your beliefs, when in fact it's part of the MSM you seem to detest so much, and is full of crap as much as any other populist media.
As I've said before, blanket dissing of the MSM is a dangerous thing because now and then, some truths emerge among the PTB-owned "news". So yes, one or two Youtubes are authentic no question. But just which ones are, is up to you and I to determine.
The Reps are busy at the moment trying their hardest to blame the "left" for the riot in the fond hope that they can deflect blame from the real perps, but at the same time have opposed a bi-partisan investigation of the Capitol riots. What ? Here's their chance to prove once and for all that Antifa and BLM are the real cause of all the trouble, but no, they can't have that because like McConnell said after the vote of 57 for Trump's conviction vs 43 against (a clear majority in any man's language except in America) that Trump was responsible.
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Post by mr potatohead on Jun 19, 2021 7:13:00 GMT
HERE"s an OANN bitchute video about January 6, 2021 "riot" at the Capitol bldg, posted June 11, 2021.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jun 20, 2021 8:13:02 GMT
The whole Jan 6 thing is convoluted and confusing. But over 400 have been charged by the FBI for various degrees of misbehaviour and their statements so far as I have read them (a sample of around 10 ) indicate straight-forward intention to occupy, occupation, with some stating they were "sent by Trump".
Hence the lack of face coverings etc. That SOME were there for more serious reasons were clearly indicated by the carriers of cable ties which are used as hand-cuffs by the military and probably the Police when they run out of the proper thing, and especially that idiot that turned up with molotov's in his van. Two pipe bombs were also found nearby indicating serious intent to injure or kill, the bombs with with timers on them.
Unless those bombs were themselves planted by the authorities in order to make things seem worse, then the situation was serious in general. A woman was shot dead after smashing a window in order to get through. Had they followed her there would have been more shot. I think some of them realized just how serious things were after that.
At any rate, over 400 have been arrested and made statements to the FBI and/or the Police and I imagine they won't get much if found guilty. Some of the charges seem paltry but of course other carry lengthy jail terms in found guilty as charged for violence as well.
On the most wanted list, there are nine videos of violent protesters and another 1170 photos (many of them three of four of the same guy) using batons and pushing police around, one guy trying to rip the visor off a policeman etc.
The 1170 accounts for about 200-300 still at large.
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Post by mr potatohead on Jun 20, 2021 14:27:46 GMT
If I remember correctly, some agent of the show planted the two pipe bombs, either to detonate when the crowd was touring the building or to later be found. You don't know the guy who showed up with the molotovs any better than the rest of us. We have no way to verify that or much of any of it except from the citizen videos - many thousands of hours of videos that we are not being shown. It appears that you believe the official story, but only in this one isolated event.
If the woman you're talking about was Ashli Babbitt, the 14 year Air Force veteran, the shooting appears to be faked since the gun was not pointed at her when it was fired.
Because of they are handy, cable ties are everywhere in vehicles glove boxes and tool bags and clearly indicate nothing at all.
Face coverings have nothing whatsoever to do with Trump. The majority of people attending knew enough about the CV threat to know they didn't need them, HOWEVER, there were many there who wore them as is plainly shown in video. Medical interventions are an individual choice.
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macky
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Post by macky on Jun 20, 2021 19:54:14 GMT
If I remember correctly, some agent of the show planted the two pipe bombs, either to detonate when the crowd was touring the building or to later be found. You don't know the guy who showed up with the molotovs any better than the rest of us. We have no way to verify that or much of any of it except from the citizen videos - many thousands of hours of videos that we are not being shown. It appears that you believe the official story, but only in this one isolated event. If the woman you're talking about was Ashli Babbitt, the 14 year Air Force veteran, the shooting appears to be faked since the gun was not pointed at her when it was fired. Because of they are handy, cable ties are everywhere in vehicles glove boxes and tool bags and clearly indicate nothing at all. Face coverings have nothing whatsoever to do with Trump. The majority of people attending knew enough about the CV threat to know they didn't need them, HOWEVER, there were many there who wore them as is plainly shown in video. Medical interventions are an individual choice. Like I said, the two pipe bombs could have been planted by the authorities to make things look worse. If the guy with the Molotovs was a stooge, then that wouldn't be any surprise given America's record for staging "events" that were used as justification for war etc, The record of Ashli Babbitt included a strong belief in QAnon BEFORE any riot, and her assertion that she would be going there to take back America, or some similar statement. Whether she was genuinely shot with intent or not, she died by all other accounts, and was one of the dead of that day. Cable ties. Seriously mikey ? Can you not distinguish between handy cable ties carried in a vehicle, or carried en-person to the riot, in full view ? Why would anybody carry cable ties to a riot/protest for any other reason but restraining somebody ? Holding up their socks, perhaps ? Face coverings. Nothing to do with CV. Sure there were some wearing them, but there were many more who didn't, because they believed at Trump's encouragement that they were there to take America back. Where and how they were going to take America back to, I don't know. Back to the Dark Ages, I suppose, but any doubt about Trump's involvement in the whole affair was quashed by '57 for' vs '43 against' votes to convict Trump for insurrection, which it actually was, and your continued support for your Constitution seems a bit shaky when you keep on proposing that somehow the bulk of those people were there for other reasons. McConnell's outburst also left no doubt at what he was saying re Trump's involvement. Given McConnell's ability to take advantage of any political situation that suits him, do you think that he as a senior Republican, lambasting Trump was a good move for McConnell's political career if it wasn't true ? Further argument on the matter will be clarified when convictions and sentencing start coming through in numbers, which will be fairly soon as I understand it. Not all, but for some, a long spell in jail may give them time to rethink their motivations and actions on yet another disgraceful day in American history.
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