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Post by misterfurious on Sept 3, 2020 18:25:10 GMT
Mr. Fixx's running didn't cause his heart disease. It was his diet that did it. It was a prime risk factor that caused his heart attack. The running bit as a catalyst & causal I absolutely agree on. It's called exerting yourself. I would quibble about your high carbs worldwide comment because not all carbs are created equal as it depends on the type, your other macros & circadian rhythms. EG: What about diabetics who observe the glycemic index & glycemic load along with food combinations which affect insulin levels & plaque formation? What about OMAD or ADF or eating a Twinkie Diet? You can still lose weight, have great bloodwork & a low calcium score to boot. I don't think I'm making straw man arguments here? I admit I made a generalized statement about cookies & pasta without explaining why it was detrimental to Mr. Fixx. I read that he "carb loaded" with fast carbs as a matter of course for long distance running frequently & that's like giving alcohol to an alcoholic considering his known medical history. There is heaps of valid research on the function of nutritional epigenetics & how it affects DNA methylation which determines gene expression. I think all in all I'm making a logos not pathos argument here but I could be wrong? I don't think you're arguing from pathos. Your logos is just faulty. I've never seen any large, peer-reviewed research or study that has determined a causal or even correlative link between "fast" carbs and heart disease. Taubes and his ilk will give you loads of questionable research done on small groups and funded by people who have money to earn by telling people carbs are "evil". The guy who wrote the "Plant Paradox" was outright fraudulent in his sources. So, I'm still waiting for something done by neutral, inquisitive researchers that suggests any of this stuff. Again, billions of humans survive on white rice as a staple of their diet and they have lower rates of heart disease, diabetes and cancer than American do. White rice is a "fast" carb. So it's difficult for me to just accept that there's anything inherently detrimental in carbohydrate "fast" or "slow." The only bad thing about carbs is they're delicious, and if they're ultra-refined and combined with refined-fats (i.e. potato chips), it's easy to eat way more than we need to. Which, again, if your argument is that Fixx simply ate too much FOOD. Sure, I'd be much more open to that idea. Caloric surplus is potentially a problem here, not carbs or fats or red meats or whatever. As you pointed out (I think) people have gone on twinkie diets and had positive results, as long as the calories are kept at a reasonable level. No one on the twinkie diet died from heart disease. www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-dec-06-la-he-fitness-twinkie-diet-20101206-story.html#:~:text=Twinkie%20Guy%20%E2%80%94%20also%20known%20as,Stop%20the%20presses. For further education I would encourage anyone to listen to the old podcasts of "Evil Sugar Radio" and to visit the blog carbsanity.blogspot.com/. However, there is a fair amount of good research on the stress that intense, prolonged exercise has on the heart. And it's not uncommon for people to drop dead at marathons or training for one.
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brothersteve
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Post by brothersteve on Sept 3, 2020 19:40:15 GMT
I really catch onto the point you make on heart health and prolonged exercise. My aunt lived to 87, and the last 2 months wanted to pass on because she hated the nursing home so much. At 10 years old she caught scarlet fever and developed a heart murmur. She was told to take it easy as she had a 'heart condition'. She was 5'4", 132 lbs her whole adult life, except the last 4 years dropped to about 120 lbs. The only exercise she did were the activities of daily living, housework, cooking, cleaning, wash, shopping. She lived on the 2nd floor of a house she owned so did walk up and down stairs several times a day. She had an exercise routine she did every morning in bed where she waved her arms around and did the laying down bicycle along with some situps and leg raises (and I'm talking like 10-12 reps of each only), nothing serious. Her diet was bad; breakfast at 8:30am was weak coffee with 3-4 saltine crackers with jelly, another cup of weak coffee at 11am, lunch of a sandwich at 12:30, weak coffee and something sweet at 3:30pm, dinner of some kind of meat or elbow noodles with some butter on them at 6:30pm and a bedtime snack of ice cream or cake and milk at 11:30pm. Had a surgically repaired brain aneurism at 53 (at the time they told her she had hardening of the arteries) and a broken hip from a fall at 73. Never took meds except for the occasional aspirin for headache and was rarely sick. She avoided crowds and people for the most part as she was a loner and lived in a run down neighborhood she refused to leave. Her father died of a massive heart attack at 63 and mother died in her sleep at 71. My aunt did ok for doing nothing good for her health and being a self proclaimed chocoholic. Charles Atlas allegedly complained of chest pains while running on the beach. I read in several places Fixx knew his family (father died at 43 of heart attack) history of heart disease and believed it to be his free pass to eat junk food. Fixx was not fat. Is it good for longevity to take challenging workouts and eat clean to live longer? At 54, I think back to my mom and aunt, who only ate white rice, saying to take all things in moderation. I think that a little huffing and puffing daily is good and that each of us has to 'earn' a certain amount of food we eat - can't just 'gorge', and I do think that too much and too often strenuous exercise (per individual) can be lethal. If Fixx revised his diet and cut down to walking would have lived longer? Maybe.
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Post by Deuce Gunner on Sept 3, 2020 20:25:04 GMT
It's been said here many times before (including by me) that Jack LaLannes brother lived 3 years longer than Jack did and only played golf. Fate is a fickle thing. The other thing I want to add is that if they find you DRT (dead right there), that's one thing, but if you pass away in a hospital after being admitted for a condition, that's another. Medical mistakes are fact of life.
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stuke
Caneguru
Posts: 905
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Post by stuke on Sept 3, 2020 20:25:36 GMT
I really catch onto the point you make on heart health and prolonged exercise. My aunt lived to 87, and the last 2 months wanted to pass on because she hated the nursing home so much. At 10 years old she caught scarlet fever and developed a heart murmur. She was told to take it easy as she had a 'heart condition'. She was 5'4", 132 lbs her whole adult life, except the last 4 years dropped to about 120 lbs. The only exercise she did were the activities of daily living, housework, cooking, cleaning, wash, shopping. She lived on the 2nd floor of a house she owned so did walk up and down stairs several times a day. She had an exercise routine she did every morning in bed where she waved her arms around and did the laying down bicycle along with some situps and leg raises (and I'm talking like 10-12 reps of each only), nothing serious. Her diet was bad; breakfast at 8:30am was weak coffee with 3-4 saltine crackers with jelly, another cup of weak coffee at 11am, lunch of a sandwich at 12:30, weak coffee and something sweet at 3:30pm, dinner of some kind of meat or elbow noodles with some butter on them at 6:30pm and a bedtime snack of ice cream or cake and milk at 11:30pm. Had a surgically repaired brain aneurism at 53 (at the time they told her she had hardening of the arteries) and a broken hip from a fall at 73. Never took meds except for the occasional aspirin for headache and was rarely sick. She avoided crowds and people for the most part as she was a loner and lived in a run down neighborhood she refused to leave. Her father died of a massive heart attack at 63 and mother died in her sleep at 71. My aunt did ok for doing nothing good for her health and being a self proclaimed chocoholic. Charles Atlas allegedly complained of chest pains while running on the beach. I read in several places Fixx knew his family (father died at 43 of heart attack) history of heart disease and believed it to be his free pass to eat junk food. Fixx was not fat. Is it good for longevity to take challenging workouts and eat clean to live longer? At 54, I think back to my mom and aunt, who only ate white rice, saying to take all things in moderation. I think that a little huffing and puffing daily is good and that each of us has to 'earn' a certain amount of food we eat - can't just 'gorge', and I do think that too much and too often strenuous exercise (per individual) can be lethal. If Fixx revised his diet and cut down to walking would have lived longer? Maybe. Very good post. There are lots of folk who did things 'wrong' all their lives (but not necessarily to excess) who have achieved a good old age. I would guess there are many athletes and sports people, vegetarians and abstainers who did not do so well. The key maybe is again, as you suggested, moderation. That term gets bandied around a lot, but I think there is a lot to it. Also, perhaps depriving yourself of pleasurable food all the time - how good is the act of denying yourself something. Perhaps doong so lessens your essence in some way. In terms of what exercise the body actually needs, gardening, up and down stairs, tidying, walking, odd jobs - more than enough I would think. If you want to improve at a sport, then more is required. If. You want to dominate a sport, bring on the excess. Did Steve Redgrave do himself any favours by red lining in the boat and cramming high carbs down his neck? What is required for the sport is not necessarly good for the body as we know. I like to get my heart beating fast, but not at the top end of it's capability.
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Post by Deuce Gunner on Sept 3, 2020 21:45:49 GMT
I really catch onto the point you make on heart health and prolonged exercise. My aunt lived to 87, and the last 2 months wanted to pass on because she hated the nursing home so much. At 10 years old she caught scarlet fever and developed a heart murmur. She was told to take it easy as she had a 'heart condition'. She was 5'4", 132 lbs her whole adult life, except the last 4 years dropped to about 120 lbs. The only exercise she did were the activities of daily living, housework, cooking, cleaning, wash, shopping. She lived on the 2nd floor of a house she owned so did walk up and down stairs several times a day. She had an exercise routine she did every morning in bed where she waved her arms around and did the laying down bicycle along with some situps and leg raises (and I'm talking like 10-12 reps of each only), nothing serious. Her diet was bad; breakfast at 8:30am was weak coffee with 3-4 saltine crackers with jelly, another cup of weak coffee at 11am, lunch of a sandwich at 12:30, weak coffee and something sweet at 3:30pm, dinner of some kind of meat or elbow noodles with some butter on them at 6:30pm and a bedtime snack of ice cream or cake and milk at 11:30pm. Had a surgically repaired brain aneurism at 53 (at the time they told her she had hardening of the arteries) and a broken hip from a fall at 73. Never took meds except for the occasional aspirin for headache and was rarely sick. She avoided crowds and people for the most part as she was a loner and lived in a run down neighborhood she refused to leave. Her father died of a massive heart attack at 63 and mother died in her sleep at 71. My aunt did ok for doing nothing good for her health and being a self proclaimed chocoholic. Charles Atlas allegedly complained of chest pains while running on the beach. I read in several places Fixx knew his family (father died at 43 of heart attack) history of heart disease and believed it to be his free pass to eat junk food. Fixx was not fat. Is it good for longevity to take challenging workouts and eat clean to live longer? At 54, I think back to my mom and aunt, who only ate white rice, saying to take all things in moderation. I think that a little huffing and puffing daily is good and that each of us has to 'earn' a certain amount of food we eat - can't just 'gorge', and I do think that too much and too often strenuous exercise (per individual) can be lethal. If Fixx revised his diet and cut down to walking would have lived longer? Maybe. Your aunt (bless her heart) was doing everything that Leonard Morehouse recommended in his book Total Fitness in 30 Minutes A Week to prevent deterioration plus a bit more.
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Michael
Caneguru
He cuts down trees. He wears high heels, suspendies, and a bra?!
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Posts: 5,288
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Post by Michael on Sept 3, 2020 22:40:31 GMT
Moderation was the point I was trying to get across in my cardio thread. Good posts BrotherSteve, Stuke, and Duece. This is a good question," Is it good for longevity to take challenging workouts and eat clean to live longer?" I think because of my jobs I can't remember being out of breath while doing anything. I've played with harder endurance sessions and never redlined. Always felt like a normal day at work. But I don't see the sense in beating Your body to crap. I want my exercise to be fun, feel good, and prevent injuries. We only have so much control over how long we live, I'm going to enjoy what I do.
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moxohol
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Biohacker
Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Post by moxohol on Sept 4, 2020 11:39:46 GMT
Moderation was the point I was trying to get across in my cardio thread. Good posts BrotherSteve, Stuke, and Duece. This is a good question," Is it good for longevity to take challenging workouts and eat clean to live longer?" I think because of my jobs I can't remember being out of breath while doing anything. I've played with harder endurance sessions and never redlined. Always felt like a normal day at work. But I don't see the sense in beating Your body to crap. I want my exercise to be fun, feel good, and prevent injuries. We only have so much control over how long we live, I'm going to enjoy what I do. The higher the intensity the briefer it should be & not of a prolonged nature either. The Soviets figured that out long ago. The most effective exercise is the one you'll do frequently. My favorite aerobics is housecleaning. Broom, bucket & mop. 350sq meters of floor to clean. I warm my back up swiveling side to side while mopping!
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moxohol
Caneguru
Biohacker
Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Post by moxohol on Sept 4, 2020 14:22:36 GMT
Mr. Fixx's running didn't cause his heart attack.... I don't think you're arguing from pathos. Your logos is just faulty. I've never seen any large, peer-reviewed research or study that has determined a causal or even correlative link between "fast" carbs and heart disease. Taubes and his ilk will give you loads of questionable research done on small groups and funded by people who have money to earn by telling people carbs are "evil". The guy who wrote the "Plant Paradox" was outright fraudulent in his sources. So, I'm still waiting for something done by neutral, inquisitive researchers that suggests any of this stuff. Again, billions of humans survive on white rice as a staple of their diet and they have lower rates of heart disease, diabetes and cancer than American do. White rice is a "fast" carb. So it's difficult for me to just accept that there's anything inherently detrimental in carbohydrate "fast" or "slow." The only bad thing about carbs is they're delicious, and if they're ultra-refined and combined with refined-fats (i.e. potato chips), it's easy to eat way more than we need to. Which, again, if your argument is that Fixx simply ate too much FOOD. Sure, I'd be much more open to that idea. Caloric surplus is potentially a problem here, not carbs or fats or red meats or whatever. As you pointed out (I think) people have gone on twinkie diets and had positive results, as long as the calories are kept at a reasonable level. No one on the twinkie diet died from heart disease. www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-dec-06-la-he-fitness-twinkie-diet-20101206-story.html#:~:text=Twinkie%20Guy%20%E2%80%94%20also%20known%20as,Stop%20the%20presses. For further education I would encourage anyone to listen to the old podcasts of "Evil Sugar Radio" and to visit the blog carbsanity.blogspot.com/. However, there is a fair amount of good research on the stress that intense, prolonged exercise has on the heart. And it's not uncommon for people to drop dead at marathons or training for one. "... I've never seen any large, peer-reviewed research or study that has determined a causal or even correlative link between "fast" carbs and heart disease...." What?! Of course there is! It's called the "GI Diet" created in the University of Toronto since 1981. Millions of successful diabetics using it can't be ALL wrong? There are scores of studies on it. Here's one: Glycemic index and heart disease - PubMed pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12081853/A case history: Tim Belknap, successful diabetic pro bodybuilder. Tim Belknap - Greatest Physiques www.greatestphysiques.com/male-physiques/tim-belknap/"...So, I'm still waiting for something done by neutral, inquisitive researchers that suggests any of this stuff..." Below should address many of nutritional criteria stated by you here. The author has many college textbooks to his name & is a standard on campuses: "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D. and Thomas M. Campbell II, M.D. "...Again, billions of humans survive on white rice as a staple of their diet and they have lower rates of heart disease, diabetes and cancer than American do. White rice is a "fast" carb..." 1) That's because, traditionally, asians eat mainly unrefined starch (e.g. brown rice, root vegetables) that is slow to digest due to the high fiber content. Even today, asians still add veggies to their WHITE rice which lowers the overall glycemic value of their meal. Same reason I eat a side dish of lentils whenever I eat cake or add cherries to my Hagen Daz ice cream. Same principle applies to both here. 2) Asians have lower consumption of refined sugar (fructose) which inhibits insulin resistance from developing. Ur average American on an SAD consumes a shit load of sugar from soft drinks alone. Source: "The Good Calorie Diet" by Philip Lipet 1996
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Post by billfish on Sept 4, 2020 14:51:22 GMT
Fellas It's really simple.....you live and then, you die And then maybe.....
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MBS
Caneguru
Lean, lithe and feral
Posts: 1,297
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Post by MBS on Sept 4, 2020 15:24:35 GMT
Fellas It's really simple.....you live and then, you die And then maybe..... Father Time is still undefeated.
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Post by misterfurious on Sept 4, 2020 15:56:07 GMT
I don't think you're arguing from pathos. Your logos is just faulty. I've never seen any large, peer-reviewed research or study that has determined a causal or even correlative link between "fast" carbs and heart disease. Taubes and his ilk will give you loads of questionable research done on small groups and funded by people who have money to earn by telling people carbs are "evil". The guy who wrote the "Plant Paradox" was outright fraudulent in his sources. So, I'm still waiting for something done by neutral, inquisitive researchers that suggests any of this stuff. Again, billions of humans survive on white rice as a staple of their diet and they have lower rates of heart disease, diabetes and cancer than American do. White rice is a "fast" carb. So it's difficult for me to just accept that there's anything inherently detrimental in carbohydrate "fast" or "slow." The only bad thing about carbs is they're delicious, and if they're ultra-refined and combined with refined-fats (i.e. potato chips), it's easy to eat way more than we need to. Which, again, if your argument is that Fixx simply ate too much FOOD. Sure, I'd be much more open to that idea. Caloric surplus is potentially a problem here, not carbs or fats or red meats or whatever. As you pointed out (I think) people have gone on twinkie diets and had positive results, as long as the calories are kept at a reasonable level. No one on the twinkie diet died from heart disease. www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-dec-06-la-he-fitness-twinkie-diet-20101206-story.html#:~:text=Twinkie%20Guy%20%E2%80%94%20also%20known%20as,Stop%20the%20presses. For further education I would encourage anyone to listen to the old podcasts of "Evil Sugar Radio" and to visit the blog carbsanity.blogspot.com/. However, there is a fair amount of good research on the stress that intense, prolonged exercise has on the heart. And it's not uncommon for people to drop dead at marathons or training for one. "... I've never seen any large, peer-reviewed research or study that has determined a causal or even correlative link between "fast" carbs and heart disease...." What?! Of course there is! It's called the "GI Diet" created in the University of Toronto since 1981. Millions of successful diabetics using it can't be ALL wrong? There are scores of studies on it. Here's one: Glycemic index and heart disease - PubMed pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12081853/A case history: Tim Belknap, successful diabetic pro bodybuilder. Tim Belknap - Greatest Physiques www.greatestphysiques.com/male-physiques/tim-belknap/"...So, I'm still waiting for something done by neutral, inquisitive researchers that suggests any of this stuff..." Below should address many of nutritional criteria stated by you here. The author has many college textbooks to his name & is a standard on campuses: "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D. and Thomas M. Campbell II, M.D. "...Again, billions of humans survive on white rice as a staple of their diet and they have lower rates of heart disease, diabetes and cancer than American do. White rice is a "fast" carb..." 1) That's because, traditionally, asians eat mainly unrefined starch (e.g. brown rice, root vegetables) that is slow to digest due to the high fiber content. Even today, asians still add veggies to their WHITE rice which lowers the overall glycemic value of their meal. Same reason I eat a side dish of lentils whenever I eat cake or add cherries to my Hagen Daz ice cream. Same principle applies to both here. 2) Asians have lower consumption of refined sugar (fructose) which inhibits insulin resistance from developing. Ur average American on an SAD consumes a shit load of sugar from soft drinks alone. Source: "The Good Calorie Diet" by Philip Lipet 1996 The conclusions of that first study you linked is a little more complex than what you're proposing. And ultimately don't conclude that lower GI diets are shown to be "healthier" for the heart without the inclusion of several other factors. The China Study is actually one of my favorite books and is where I first started to realize that High Carb fears are bullshit. Have you read the book? Have you visited Campbell's website? He believes in high carb diets. He believes a diet of "fast carbs" while not ideal, is still preferable to any diet that includes animal protein. Not sure why you chose to include that here? Your assertion about Asian diets is not all that accurate. Okinawans eat a lot of root vegetables. South Asians eat a lot of taro. Chinese, Koreans and Japanese traditionally still eat white (not brown) rice in amounts that would make low-carbers faint from disgust. Yes, adding vegetables or meat lowers the GI of the white rice, but if you believe Fixx only ate fast carbs and did not eat fruits, vegetables or meat, I don't think that's true. Supposedly he was a fan of fast food, so we know he was also eating meat. But, he was also a smoker and had weighed more than 200 lbs prior to taking up running, so he had a lot of factors that contributed to his heart disease. In fact, smoking in and of itself almost certainly had more influence over his heart disease than his diet did.
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Post by misterfurious on Sept 4, 2020 15:57:03 GMT
Moderation was the point I was trying to get across in my cardio thread. Good posts BrotherSteve, Stuke, and Duece. This is a good question," Is it good for longevity to take challenging workouts and eat clean to live longer?" I think because of my jobs I can't remember being out of breath while doing anything. I've played with harder endurance sessions and never redlined. Always felt like a normal day at work. But I don't see the sense in beating Your body to crap. I want my exercise to be fun, feel good, and prevent injuries. We only have so much control over how long we live, I'm going to enjoy what I do. The higher the intensity the briefer it should be & not of a prolonged nature either. The Soviets figured that out long ago. The most effective exercise is the one you'll do frequently. My favorite aerobics is housecleaning. Broom, bucket & mop. 350sq meters of floor to clean. I warm my back up mopping! Since I keep attacking your other posts, I just want to say I actually agree with this philosophy wholeheartedly.
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Post by misterfurious on Sept 4, 2020 15:59:22 GMT
I really catch onto the point you make on heart health and prolonged exercise. My aunt lived to 87, and the last 2 months wanted to pass on because she hated the nursing home so much. At 10 years old she caught scarlet fever and developed a heart murmur. She was told to take it easy as she had a 'heart condition'. She was 5'4", 132 lbs her whole adult life, except the last 4 years dropped to about 120 lbs. The only exercise she did were the activities of daily living, housework, cooking, cleaning, wash, shopping. She lived on the 2nd floor of a house she owned so did walk up and down stairs several times a day. She had an exercise routine she did every morning in bed where she waved her arms around and did the laying down bicycle along with some situps and leg raises (and I'm talking like 10-12 reps of each only), nothing serious. Her diet was bad; breakfast at 8:30am was weak coffee with 3-4 saltine crackers with jelly, another cup of weak coffee at 11am, lunch of a sandwich at 12:30, weak coffee and something sweet at 3:30pm, dinner of some kind of meat or elbow noodles with some butter on them at 6:30pm and a bedtime snack of ice cream or cake and milk at 11:30pm. Had a surgically repaired brain aneurism at 53 (at the time they told her she had hardening of the arteries) and a broken hip from a fall at 73. Never took meds except for the occasional aspirin for headache and was rarely sick. She avoided crowds and people for the most part as she was a loner and lived in a run down neighborhood she refused to leave. Her father died of a massive heart attack at 63 and mother died in her sleep at 71. My aunt did ok for doing nothing good for her health and being a self proclaimed chocoholic. Charles Atlas allegedly complained of chest pains while running on the beach. I read in several places Fixx knew his family (father died at 43 of heart attack) history of heart disease and believed it to be his free pass to eat junk food. Fixx was not fat. Is it good for longevity to take challenging workouts and eat clean to live longer? At 54, I think back to my mom and aunt, who only ate white rice, saying to take all things in moderation. I think that a little huffing and puffing daily is good and that each of us has to 'earn' a certain amount of food we eat - can't just 'gorge', and I do think that too much and too often strenuous exercise (per individual) can be lethal. If Fixx revised his diet and cut down to walking would have lived longer? Maybe. This is a great post. I do brief, high intensity workouts 1-2x per week, so I'm not against exercise. I do think there's a lot of misinformation out there, though, and I don't think running for more than 20-30 minutes a few times per week is actually extending anybody's life. And running marathons I wholeheartedly believe does more damage than good. Heck, even in my workouts, I can feel my heart pumping and I'm thinking that when I get older, I can't imagine my heart is going to like that very much.
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moxohol
Caneguru
Biohacker
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Posts: 3,283
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Post by moxohol on Sept 4, 2020 16:31:10 GMT
The higher the intensity the briefer it should be & not of a prolonged nature either. The Soviets figured that out long ago. The most effective exercise is the one you'll do frequently. My favorite aerobics is housecleaning. Broom, bucket & mop. 350sq meters of floor to clean. I warm my back up mopping! Since I keep attacking your other posts, I just want to say I actually agree with this philosophy wholeheartedly. erm? Ur not "attacking" ur "discoursing" with me. Just like intelligent adults do. I play chess & the only way I got better at it was playing someone better then me. Life is like that in general.
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Post by vegetus25 on Sept 4, 2020 16:45:45 GMT
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