macky
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Post by macky on Apr 4, 2020 3:00:13 GMT
Brett Crozier, captain of the Theodore Roosevelt, gets stood down because of a letter to his superiors begging for some solution to the covid 19 that had tested positive in a hundred of his sailors.
Let's face it, it's happened a lot in the armed services, someone at the front end highlighting concerns about the health and safety of his men ruffling the feathers of the hide-bound top brass, about as remote from said front end as you or I are at home.
Imagine the talent and sheer aptitude of an officer that runs one of the largest war machines on the planet, with thousands of men under his command, billions of dollars worth of hardware weaponry including aircraft, state of the art electronics and computer-operated defense systems etc etc etc .
The responsibility of all that went west when he had the sheer cheek to write a letter that apparently wasn't quite cringing or nice enough to his bosses, just because he wanted to look after those he commands in a proper and timely manner. To add further embarrassment, the letter got out and oh dear, that's just not good enough. Sack the impertinent blighter.
And this upstart wasn't very popular either with his crew. The morale was so low in fact, they gave him a standing ovation with loud cheers when Brett descended the gangway.
Donald (You're Fired!) Trump of course didn't find anything wrong with it, and therein lies the difference between someone who runs the place like a CEO for a business company, and an experienced political-savvy leader with navy experience (ex-assistant secretary of the USN ) and ongoing life-long interest like Franklin Roosevelt. Admittedly FDR got rid of Richardson when he had the audacity to disobey Roosevelt's orders to berth the fleet at Pearl Harbour, thereby presenting an irresistible target for the IJN, and excuse for full entry into WW2.
But that was a strategic move for very good reasons. The Japanese had to be stopped. But what's this about a huge aircraft carrier's popular captain among his men obviously, being stood down for trying to look after them ? I very much doubt that whatever one thinks about Roosevelt, he would have been on top of that straight away, and belayed the dismissal order very smuckin' fartly.
And that my friends points to the very reason why America is so slow to react to a global enemy that nobody can see. They didn't react to the 9-11 flights. Not a single fighter intercept of any of the four. Sent out to sea instead for a day in the sun and the sea gulls. Later promotions to the military men-in-charge who should have been sacked there and then.
The reason is that America has too many levels of command in the armed forces, has proven in WW2 that there was very little interaction between different services, and in civvy street too many departments, all with their multi-levels. By the time someone reaches those highest levels, they act as though they are far removed from the very sharp end which they ultimately command. Which they are.
The scene obviously is more a public relations job than an actual military career. And in this case of Brett Crozier, the hierarchy have proven they are as sensitive as the Chinese PTB we are so fond of pointing fingers at.
Re the virus, everybody is running around in circles trying to find someone who will take responsibility for getting something resolute done. Nobody seems to know what's going on.
Prez Harry S Truman had a sign on his desk "The Buck Stops Here".
I don't think Trump has any such sign anywhere in sight.
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Dave Reslo
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Post by Dave Reslo on Apr 4, 2020 19:06:29 GMT
Yeah that story sounded ridiculous to me too. A little different but regarding levels of command, we often ridicule the Royal Navy because it has more admirals than ships.
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Post by fredhutch on Apr 4, 2020 20:59:10 GMT
In the service there are two kinds of reputations, the one on the official record and the one that gets told in barrooms. You can guess which one is more important to the real quality people.
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macky
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Post by macky on Apr 5, 2020 0:28:53 GMT
Quite right. Well, with any more responses like that to a global threat by those in the American hierarchy (military or otherwise) happening, it will become increasingly obvious why the virus has such a grip on the country i.e. 50,000 new cases in the last 48 hours.
1.) Too bloody late to recognize and respond resolutely to the threat, despite other countries undergoing devastating disruption first. Trump was blaming it all on a Dem hoax as late as Feb 28
2.) Far too much division both in the military, and civvy street, on all levels. Much harder to get consensus and direct co-ordinated action.
3.) Vulnerability of America due to off-shore outsourcing of essential drugs and ingredients, mostly to China, placing critical dependence on a politically-opposed country. The words "economic treason" comes to mind. If the Chinese PTB ever take a militaristic stand and curtail said supplies, that will demonstrate just how much America is vulnerable to economic manipulation from other govts. No wonder nationalism has such a hold in the USA in certain quarters. Open betrayal by the Money Men.
4.) Prime underlying reason for 3) is unbridled Rampant Capitalism, where 2% own 40% of the country's wealth. Both capitalism and socialism should be balanced, so that those that are rich are not so rich, and those that are poor are not so poor. Everyone matters.
5.) Lack of incentive to make the country self-sufficient with everything it needs not only in good times, but in emergencies such as now. Not only the USA but others too, including NZ. The "global economy" war-cry and the economic dissolving of borders (EU etc) has been found to be wanting in the face of a vicious unseen enemy.
6.) re 5.) Geographical borders are now being enforced in those countries that are showing a slower growth and death rate from the virus. Both internationally and locally. Wide spread testing. Once again, a quick glance at Plane Finder this morning, no such luck in the USA.
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Post by mr potatohead on Apr 5, 2020 4:20:57 GMT
So, why is it that I have to laugh?
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macky
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Post by macky on Apr 5, 2020 9:14:02 GMT
Because you might cry otherwise mikey.
It IS laughable though. Imagine the talent, experience, knowledge and popularity among his men that captain had. Multi-billion-dollar vessel under his command, lives of his men his ultimate responsibility etc.
Dismissed all because of a letter to his superiors re the safety of his men. Now that's laughable, as far as I'm concerned. Talk about undermining a crucial part of your country's defense just because your feathers get a bit ruffled, Admiral.
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Post by chanduthemagician on Apr 6, 2020 0:17:05 GMT
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macky
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Post by macky on Apr 6, 2020 5:39:09 GMT
The article demonstrates clearly the historical nature of those in power, remote from the front end as ever they could be, making decisions and non-decisions that decide the fate of those whose only value are regarded as cannon-fodder and disposable resources. It's been going on a long time.
Neither have those in the Ivory Towers any experience or concept of what they are dealing with when making such ultimate decisions, by and large. Some have had combat duty, or have been close enough to the action to have seen it with both eyes, most have not.
Half way up the ladder, we have the sycophants and arse-lickers who well know the problems and consequences of the Leaders' decisions. They also know that the letter-writers are not merely stirrers, but concerned for their men's welfare as a fighting force, not left by the wayside to rot in a meaningless death. But like all of their kind they put their 'careers' first.
It is these arse lickers that may well be in charge one day, if their efforts bear any fruit, and their goals are realized.
Then they will be in command, and make decisions just like their forebears did, and have dinner and dances with the wives of the new generation of arse lickers who would succeed them, while the men at the front end who provide the reasons for the their existence in the armed forces in the first place do the dirty work, and die doing it.
It is my strong suspicion that the one who made the ultimate decision to stand Captain Crozier down was one of those described above, not the front end boys. The other sort.
I remember a popular men's magazine that had very in-depth interviews with all sorts of people featuring a US Army Captain in the Vietnam fiasco who was in charge of about 57 men. It's hard to remember all the details but the guy had got into trouble for ordering his soldiers to only use single fire and id the target first, instead of hosing the forest. Many deaths from friendly fire had come from such hosing behavior apparently and in six months, the company had lost only two men (to enemy fire).
That somehow didn't sit well with the hierarchy (I don't know why) and to add insult to non-injury, the Captain had the utter gall to order a medivac helicopter to pick up some of his wounded men. The helicopter had been on a routine hamburger run to and from Saigon, and some group of arse lickers or other didn't get their burgers that day. The captain was dismissed as I remember.
What a shame. Re the automatic fire, no wonder the NZ soldiers used to keep away from American patrols. And I'm not denigrating Bruce or anyone else here who may have served in Vietnam, as I know Bruce has. The guys I worked with back 50 years ago that came back from Vietnam service (much quieter I might add) told me all about it. They weren't the sort of guys that told stories that "expanded" as the years went by, either. I was always keenly aware of that over the years when I had occasion to drink with them. I spoke with others who I didn't know, one who had lost an arm in a booby trap, and another who was obviously still living the war by his manner, although coherent and rational. They could smell the aftershave of a patrol downwind a long way away and melt into the bush long before the patrol went past. The racket the patrol was making was disconcerting also. Talk about asking for it.
There was a British officer in the large NZ camp ( I can't remember the name) that was on observation duty and walked the camp up and down every day with his baton tucked under his arm. (I saw another one like that myself after I had been doing telephone work in the army camp at Papakura strutting along with an SAS guy openly laughing at him. The officer knew better than to take the SAS guy to task. ) One morning he pulled one of the kiwi's up for not saluting and gave him a bollocking. The British officer received an education the very next morning as dozens of kiwi soldiers who had stationed themselves along the officer's walk track, turned out of huts and from around corners and marched past the officer one by one, saluting smartly as they went. And when the Brit came back, it was the same again. By the time the British officer had gone inside his hut, his arm had been up and down like a fiddler's elbow, and life returned to normal after that.
One of my workmates that was in the artillery told us about having his haircut as usual, by a group of Vietnamese on one occasion. The camp was guarded internally as well as externally, and one night there was gunfire from the internal guards and in the morning my mate went to have a look and there was a line of dead bodies laid out in the morning sun in black pyjamas. Among them was his barber from two nights back.
Scary. I very much doubt whether the arse lickers back home would have had any of that sort of experience.
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trog
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Post by trog on Apr 7, 2020 8:34:27 GMT
Yeah that story sounded ridiculous to me too. A little different but regarding levels of command, we often ridicule the Royal Navy because it has more admirals than ships. Also, aircraft carriers without aeroplanes.
I'm pretty sure the days of the aircraft carrier are numbered. UAVs are the future - don't forget a couple of cheap drones shutdown Gatwick a couple of years ago, and these weren't armed.
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macky
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Post by macky on Apr 8, 2020 2:23:28 GMT
Yeah that story sounded ridiculous to me too. A little different but regarding levels of command, we often ridicule the Royal Navy because it has more admirals than ships. Also, aircraft carriers without aeroplanes.
I'm pretty sure the days of the aircraft carrier are numbered. UAVs are the future - don't forget a couple of cheap drones shutdown Gatwick a couple of years ago, and these weren't armed.
Large carriers are going to go the way of the battleship and battlecruiser. The ability to deliver massive firepower to targets will eventually not offset their vulnerability to sustained and overwhelming attack. Ballistic missiles are already being repurposed for attacking ships, and the sheer size and importance (currently) of the carrier in navies will leave them irresistible targets that will also shock the civilian population when they are sunk, as the demise of key battleships and battlecruisers did in WW2, notably the HMS Hood, and the Bismark shortly after.
Other anti-ship weapons are being developed such as wave-skipping missiles that are sub-sonic on their run up to target, then when sensing radar detection accelerate to supersonic speeds in a last dash. Imagine several of those being deployed against the same side of the carrier, splitting the defenses and one or two hitting home. This type of missile, along with ballistic missiles, have been cited as being very difficult to defend against.
The WW2 Tallboy could be redeployed. A large 5-ton bomb without electronics to jam etc, the fins canted to maintain stability as it went through the speed of sound, the Tallboy was responsible for first crippling the Tirpitz, one having hit her bow and passing right through her without exploding, then capsizing her later in a raid which saw two Tallboys hit the ship on the port side, while other near-misses in the water still ruptured the ships plates.
As always, big ships present big (and expensive) targets and with no resistance can certainly enforce foreign policy on smaller nations. But once they come under concerted attack, they go to the bottom like any other ship, but with far more serious consequences.
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