macky
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Post by macky on Jun 18, 2020 23:04:19 GMT
""So, if that officer had been hit, he still has a firearm on his side and the likelihood of him being stomped in the head or having his firearm taken and used against him was a probability. And so he did what he needed to do. And this was a completely justified shooting.”" Wrong. "If" didn't happen. The guy was shot well AFTER he had discharged the taser, with no injuries. By the Sheriff's own reasoning, the officer didn't "do what he needed to do". He left it too late to shoot Brooks, and endangered anybody out of sight but within range of his firearm by continuing to pursue Brooks and shoot him when he was unarmed and no further threat. That's the sort of convoluted mis-reasoning why much of the violence takes place. We had a guy here that held up a police station with a crossbow, of all things. A detective sent to the scene stormed the back door to the office and was shot in the arm. The detective responded by shooting the now-defenseless guy in the stomach, the chest, and the head. That was execution after the fact. That's when police become judge, jury, and executioner. That's similar to what happened here in this discussed case. I don't see why someone should be shot dead on the presumption of what MIGHT have happened IF......... The reason why Brooks is dead today is because of serious mistakes by the police in a failed arrest. Brooks should have been dead much sooner, if he had resisted in the same manner.
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Post by mr potatohead on Jun 18, 2020 23:11:29 GMT
There may be some other issues than just the cop's response to the taser attack. Here's what I've heard. May or may not be true, but it's what I would be thinking about if I was Rolfe and it is true.. 1. Rolfe was punched in the face during the tussle. In 20/20 hindsight this would have been a good time for him to draw on Brooks, as macky has mentioned. 2. Rolfe kicked and stood on Brooks after he was down from the shots. 3. One of Rolfe's bullets hit a Wendy's customer's vehicle with three people inside. Like I said, if true, that does not speak well for his character or training.
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Post by Deuce Gunner on Jun 18, 2020 23:12:25 GMT
I'm sorry fellas, but I DO know what is going on up there because we have the same sort of incidents here, and at any rate, I know that you guys know what you're talking about and I believe you because you are not dreamers. You're my fellow members and friends. And I'll say it again. The Blue Watch are among my heroes. Everyone makes mistakes, it's only human. I am commenting on a single incident where two officers made a mistake which was only compounded with more mistakes as the situation progressed. 1) Their first mistake was NOT initially trying to restrain the guy in order to cuff him. It was continuing to wrestle with him when it should have been obvious within seconds he was more than a match for both of them. 2) The officers had the advantage by force of arms, which they did not use appropriately. That was obvious by the felon being able to take a taser off one of the officers. Two mistakes. 3) At that point, they still had the advantage because of their guns, with the felon only feet away as he took to his heels. They didn't have their guns out so their advantage of proximity was lost. 4) Next mistake was to pursue him, which resulted in their safety being compromised by he turning and firing the taser at them. Why didn't they already have their guns drawn and shoot him there and then ? Another mistake. 5) More chasing after him when he was no further threat to their safety and beginning at long last to use their guns, or at least one of the officers. Too late. The background was not taken into consideration and if what Denis posted is true, then that very fact is proven without argument by one of the shots hitting another vehicle that had three occupants in it. Is that the sort of thing that is typical of American police officer behaviour, where shooting a firearm at a fleeing crim (by then in this incident) that presents no further threat (because he's already discharged the taser) takes no regard to what is in the background ? Resulting in a dangerous hit on an occupied vehicle ? Whether I'm over there or not makes no difference. I have not gone on reading all the nonsense, only the initial report of the incident (like yourselves) and then examining the videos. The evidence for what I am asserting is no less clearer to me thousands of miles away as it is to you guys, even if you were in the next street to the action. Look, we have somewhat the same sort of nonsense over here as well. There was a guy shot dead years ago by a detective who had raided his apartment in the early hours. The door was kicked open and the guy appeared with moonlight from a window shining on a tube, which resulted in he being shot. The tube was a Bullworker, and oh the radio was going crazy about police shootings of Maori etc. What wasn't focused on, was this guy had already been identified as one of three (possibly the shooter) who had the previous evening fired a shotgun into a crowded bar at the ceiling, with many patrons being hit and injured by pellets and ceiling material. Callers trying to make that point were cut off the air. As far as I'm concerned, the guy got his just deserts. No sympathy for him whatsoever. On the other hand, a bloke on the west coast was killed by police when he advanced on them after warnings including a shot in the air, with a golf club. The police were cleared eventually after a couple of court cases, but nobody seemed to mention that the fatal wounds were shots 3 and 4, in his side and back. That demonstrated without doubt that he was already tumbling after the first two shots, possibly the very first shot, and that the two final shots were not necessary. So police make mistakes. Understandable. The mistakes in this case under discussion kept on stacking one after the other until finally shots were fired long after they should have been, the worst mistake. Not because the guy was killed, because if there is any universal justice, he got his dues finally after a lifetime of violence, including on children which I have NO sympathy for whatsoever. (Mags posted an enlightening amount of info on this guy's criminal record.) But because those officers should not have brawled with him, should not have taken tasers to the fight unless they were willing to use them the moment the guy resisted, did not use their guns appropriately initially, midway when the guy fired the taser at them, and certainly later when one of them shot at the guy without regard to the background in the event of a miss (which happened). They are lucky nobody else was killed further down range. And your training, law, and experience credentials in U.S. law enforcement procedures sir? I can provide mine. Or the last time you went 10-8 (available for calls) or even visited the USA? Let me quote a famous Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court Oliver Wendell Holmes "Detached reflection is not possible in the face of an upraised knife". Or taser.
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Post by Magnus on Jun 18, 2020 23:33:46 GMT
5) More chasing after him when he was no further threat to their safety and beginning at long last to use their guns, or at least one of the officers. Too late. The background was not taken into consideration and if what Denis posted is true, then that very fact is proven without argument by one of the shots hitting another vehicle that had three occupants in it. Macky, did we both watch the same video ?... Here's the full version from varying viewpoints. Brooks didn't get shot until he turned around while attempting to flee, and pointed the taser (shot?) at the officer.
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Post by Magnus on Jun 18, 2020 23:37:36 GMT
I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that this officer will beat the charges, guaranteed...
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Post by mr potatohead on Jun 18, 2020 23:49:07 GMT
The charges certainly seem extreme, but it could be a show to lower tensions.
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Post by Mr. Pierini Fitness on Jun 18, 2020 23:53:29 GMT
So the million dollar question that we'll never know the answer to is if this were a white dude that did the same things as Rayshard Brooks, would the same actions by the police officers been done? I'm going to say yes and if I'm correct, then this episode is not a race thing but one of police use of lethal action when in their judgement it was justified.
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Post by billfish on Jun 19, 2020 0:54:22 GMT
As i stated previously my uncle, brother, two brothers-in-law and two nieces husbands and many friends of mine were all NYC Police Officers I have never been a police officer and would never second guess what they did unless it was blatantly wrong....and in this case, i don't think the cops were wrong at all Years ago, my brother-in-law unknowingly walked in on an armed robbery in progress and a shotgun was put to his chest....his quick thinking and action saved his life as he smacked the shotgun away from himself and then beat the living shit out of the shooter.... as relayed to me by a guy from my neighborhood who worked with my brother-in-law in Harlem Yesterday, i saw a video, again took place in Atlanta, where two police officers pulled a car over on a highway in daytime....the black driver fought the cops and got one's gun, shot him and attempted to shoot the other cop. The shooter then managed to escape in the cops car with the unwounded police officer shooting all the windows out as he drove away For you guys who are going to sit back and analyse every move on the part of the cops....this is what they have been contending with for a long, long time and it's getting worse as the riots have emboldened them . The cops are fighting for their lives out there and I challenge any of you to put yourselves in their shoes.....it's easy to criticize on the internet, it's a whole other thing entirely to go out there and deal with these savages who wouldn't blink an eye about killing you Enough of the bullshit......this is not a let's see what we can find wrong with this picture....police officers are being murdered and seriously injured and I am really getting tired of the "they should have done this" and "they shouldn't have done that". NO ONE has the right to judge unless you are willing to put your life on the line in the same situation The cops have shown incredible restraint throughout this whole mess, even though they have been under constant attack by mobs of violent animals ENOUGH !
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macky
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Post by macky on Jun 19, 2020 1:01:44 GMT
And your training, law, and experience credentials in U.S. law enforcement procedures sir? I can provide mine. Or the last time you went 10-8 (available for calls) or even visited the USA? Let me quote a famous Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court Oliver Wendell Holmes "Detached reflection is not possible in the face of an upraised knife". Or taser. You said it in two words, Deuce. "Or taser" When you can explain to me why Brooks had a taser in his possession, given the clear indications of the video of the scuffle and flight, then also please explain to me using your experience if that is standard police procedure i.e. enabling a felon to take a taser off a police officer. Examples: Why was the police taser not used in the first place once Brooks began to struggle ? Why were tasers brought to the struggle in the first place when it was obvious the officers wanted to control Brooks by physical force ? Why did the police continue to try and maintain control over the arrest using physical force when it was plainly evident they were out-classed in strength and resolve ? In other words, don't 'play' on Brooks' terms. Why did the police not regain control using other resources at their command (hand guns) ? Immediately. Why did the officers not already have their guns drawn by the time Brooks fired the taser back at them ? Look, I respect your credentials and experience Deuce. But as a member of the public (albeit in a different country) I have a right to examine and comment (in relative privacy, not the general News) on videos that are world news, and reasonably clear. Whether I am right or not, nobody here in this friendly debate has answered the questions I have asked. I am left with the conclusion (so far) that the police made serious mistakes and compounded them by further mistakes. I have already said that police are like anyone else, they make mistakes, and that I support the police. But so far, basically all we have is general statements about crime in the United States and the thugs that commit them. I don't condone Brooks' behaviour. He should have done what he was told to in the first place, and today he would be alive and able to return to his family eventually. That's all gone now. But Brooks fired a taser at the police who should have shot him at the same time when he posed a threat to their safety, not chased after him and shot him well after an event which did NOT cause any injury, and when Brooks was back to being unarmed and of no further threat to police safety, having been searched before things got out of hand. Brooks initiated an action that got him killed. That action was not counter-acted properly and professionally. By the video, not by my lack of law-enforcement credentials. Brooks was running away, unarmed. He was shot under those circumstances which raises the important question of whether police are entitled to shoot fleeing felons who are unarmed and of no threat to them. You can't carry on making assumptions and speculations on "what ifs" like the Sheriff, and acting on those speculations with lethal force. That's why laws are written, otherwise it's a police state, nothing more. Brooks had a dismal record for which he paid for in several jail terms. He was a thug, but there is now no way of telling whether he was genuinely trying to make a better life for himself. We have ex-crims who have spent a great deal of time behind bars, who have turned their lives right around, and are active helping in the communities they once preyed on. Nobody will ever trust them entirely, but at least they are trying to do good. If people do not understand that, then why bother having laws at all ? Let the police be the judge, jury and executioner. They certainly were in this case. Forget the courts. Gun 'em down.
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Post by jrmeatplow on Jun 19, 2020 1:15:22 GMT
As i stated previously my uncle, brother, two brothers-in-law and two nieces husbands and many friends of mine were all NYC Police Officers I have never been a police officer and would never second guess what they did unless it was blatantly wrong....and in this case, i don't think the cops were wrong at all Years ago, my brother-in-law unknowingly walked in on an armed robbery in progress and a shotgun was put to his chest....his quick thinking and action saved his life as he smacked the shotgun away from himself and then beat the living shit out of the shooter.... as relayed to me by a guy from my neighborhood who worked with my brother-in-law in Harlem Yesterday, i saw a video, again took place in Atlanta, where two police officers pulled a car over on a highway in daytime....the black driver fought the cops and got one's gun, shot him and attempted to shoot the other cop. The shooter then managed to escape in the cops car with the unwounded police officer shooting all the windows out as he drove away For you guys who are going to sit back and analyse every move on the part of the cops....this is what they have been contending with for a long, long time and it's getting worse as the riots have emboldened them . The cops are fighting for their lives out there and I challenge any of you to put yourselves in their shoes.....it's easy to criticize on the internet, it's a whole other thing entirely to go out there and deal with these savages who wouldn't blink an eye about killing you Enough of the bullshit......this is not a let's see what we can find wrong with this picture....police officers are being murdered and seriously injured and I am really getting tired of the "they should have done this" and "they shouldn't have done that". NO ONE has the right to judge unless you are willing to put your life on the line in the same situation The cops have shown incredible restraint throughout this whole mess, even though they have been under constant attack by mobs of violent animals ENOUGH ! There is a "use of force" pyramid. It escalates on ones own perception of violence. I've been in a world of violence since I was 17 years old and going to be 45 soon, so I have seen my fair share. If an inmate puts their hands on me, that is physical assault and I will do whatever it takes to ensure I walk out that gate every day to get home to my family, even if that mean permanent bodily damage or death for them. I value my life way beyond theirs. Something else that irritates me beyond belief is how people from all these other countries can call us "arrogant". Its amazing how high their horses do sit while they love to criticize our every move. I'm straight up, I don't care what your country does or does not do and never will, until it lands on my soil with intent to harm.
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Post by billfish on Jun 19, 2020 1:22:44 GMT
There is a "use of force" pyramid. It escalates on ones own perception of violence. I've been in a world of violence since I was 17 years old and going to be 45 soon, so I have seen my fair share. If an inmate puts their hands on me, that is physical assault and I will do whatever it takes to ensure I walk out that gate every day to get home to my family, even if that mean permanent bodily damage or death for them. I value my life way beyond theirs. Something else that irritates me beyond belief is how people from all these other countries can call us "arrogant". Its amazing how high their horses do sit while they love to criticize our every move. I'm straight up, I don't care what your country does or does not do and never will, until it lands on my soil with intent to harm. Well said jr.....you work in one of the most dangerous environments imaginable....i had several friends who were NYC COs and my hat is off to you all Talk is cheap.....let the ones sitting on the sidelines passing judgement walk in your shoes or the shoes of any other LEO and it would be a different story Stay safe
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Post by jrmeatplow on Jun 19, 2020 1:37:58 GMT
There is a "use of force" pyramid. It escalates on ones own perception of violence. I've been in a world of violence since I was 17 years old and going to be 45 soon, so I have seen my fair share. If an inmate puts their hands on me, that is physical assault and I will do whatever it takes to ensure I walk out that gate every day to get home to my family, even if that mean permanent bodily damage or death for them. I value my life way beyond theirs. Something else that irritates me beyond belief is how people from all these other countries can call us "arrogant". Its amazing how high their horses do sit while they love to criticize our every move. I'm straight up, I don't care what your country does or does not do and never will, until it lands on my soil with intent to harm. Well said jr.....you work in one of the most dangerous environments imaginable....i had several friends who were NYC COs and my hat is off to you all Talk is cheap.....let the ones sitting on the sidelines passing judgement walk in your shoes or the shoes of any other LEO and it would be a different story Stay safe Thanks Bill. yes, they have no idea. I've delt with everything from Mariel Boatlift Cubans to International Terrorists. Until you've walked in some real shoes, one should probably not speak or criticize those of us who do and have. Maybe, if they fancy themselves so intelligent (with apparently all the answers to our ills), they should question the true underlying motive of the reporting and to what its intent(hint- its not real investigative journalism). if they think its really about black lives, and that certain groups and politicians actually care about them, they are lost. They only care about harvesting the black votes and nothing more.
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Post by Mr. Pierini Fitness on Jun 19, 2020 1:40:07 GMT
My office is in midtown about one mile from downtown so I see police officers daily. I used to live in this area and saw police officers daily, even called them to get rid of homeless bums hanging out too close to my home.
Something I started doing several years ago genuinely and from the bottom of my heart is going up to an officer and vocally thanking him or her for keeping “us” safe. You”d be surprised of their reaction as if they seldom receive such thanks.
Last time I did this was a few weeks ago when we had all them assholes looting and damaging businesses during the BLM protests. The officer had the proudest grin imaginable.
For me, it felt equally as good to give thanks. I’ve had experience serving a couple different clients that are associations representing law enforcement including chiefs of police. I know their character yet acknowledging, just like all humans, there are a few bad apples. But, most are good and I’d loan them money if they asked.
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Post by billfish on Jun 19, 2020 1:52:01 GMT
Well said jr.....you work in one of the most dangerous environments imaginable....i had several friends who were NYC COs and my hat is off to you all Talk is cheap.....let the ones sitting on the sidelines passing judgement walk in your shoes or the shoes of any other LEO and it would be a different story Stay safe Thanks Bill. yes, they have no idea. I've delt with everything from Mariel Boatlift Cubans to International Terrorists. Until you've walked in some real shoes, one should probably not speak or criticize those of us who do and have. Maybe, if they fancy themselves so intelligent (with apparently all the answers to our ills), they should question the true underlying motive of the reporting and to what its intent(hint- its not real investigative journalism). if they think its really about black lives, and that certain groups and politicians actually care about them, they are lost. They only care about harvesting the black votes and nothing more. BINGO.....you nailed it jr ! I have been in a lot of burning buildings in my career and have been seriously burned but there isn't enough money in the world for me to be a CO !
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macky
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Post by macky on Jun 19, 2020 2:18:40 GMT
I don't call anyone arrogant, whether they are doing a splendid job like law enforcement or prison warden etc.
And as a citizen of a country which is greatly influenced by America in many ways, I feel I have a right to comment on US goings-on from time to time. Whatever is wrong here, it's amplified in America to the extreme, and whatever is good here, then America has that too, in abundance.
I have asked questions enough. Mags has posted a video which I had not seen, but seen parts of it. It's a pity that the sound went at the last bit of the video, because as you can see here on Mags' video, Brooks was shot very quickly (or at the same time) as he turned to fire the taser at the police officer. It would be helpful if we heard the shots. At any rate, the shots and taser look close together so it would be an injustice if Rolfe is convicted of anything.
That's a bit strange because I saw a video some days ago where the police officer was clearly a long way back from Brooks and which I based my assertions on Brooks having a free run well after firing the taser. I think there has been some "splicing" done on Mags' video. On another one I heard time-pips ? and that's when the sound stopped.
If it turns out that Mags' video is the correct one, then there is no case to answer re the shots, except for the one that hit the car.
And my other questions re the struggle with the officers still stand as clear evidence of trying to control an arrest by physical force when it was obviously hopeless against a much stronger man.
The officers look puny against Brooks, and should have stopped and stepped back and drawn. Either way, he's dead and there won't be any more chases for him.
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