Workout routine or not ?

[Deuce Gunner]

Jan 25, 2020 17:50:07 GMT machinehead said:

 My thought was, this is like telling someone they need to take some "medicine" in that it creates questions along the lines of "what am I trying to fix?"... in other words, there needs to be some kind of goal in mind, otherwise how am I to know if I'm doing the right thing and how do I measure progress? So, with this in mind, for myself, I'm rationalizing my progress by saying if I can do the same amount of work today as I did yesterday, I'm making progress because I'm a day older today then I was yesterday and as I age, strength and performance decreases 

For many over 35, most over 40, and everyone over 50, maintenance and progress are virtually the same thing.

[Michael]

Jan 25, 2020 16:12:36 GMT fredhutch said:

Hi Michael--

I don't do any traditional cardio anymore and doubt I ever will again...I have been heavily influenced by PHA training, also Bud Jeffries "Twisted Conditioning" and Emerson's "Chain Reaction Training"...since my goal is to have strength and endurance at the same time, they have to be trained together.

I have never done the Gironda style hyperventilation between sets; I'm willing to take his word that it works, I've just never felt moved to do it...and again, most of the time I'm moving from one exercise to another with no rest so there is no pause for breathing techniques. I have long been a big believer in the use of forced breathing during sets, as is done in the classic "breathing squat" program...Peary Rader of IronMan magazine reported that while on the breathing squat program he had phenomenal endurance, he said he would go hiking in the mountains and would leave all his friends behind, he had such fabulous lung power. My own experience is similar...I am convinced that the endurance and lung power from breathing squats is far superior to anything you can get with typical aerobic activities, plus it builds strength and muscle at the same time. Mike Brown also talked up the benefits of breathing squats in his knife fighting book "Prison's Bloody Iron".

Thanks Fred! Couple more questions for You. I pretty much have done the same as You, moving from exercise to exercise. A lot of the kettlebell stuff I've done and sometimes do goes by this concept. I'm not familiar with Bud's "Twisted Conditioning" but I am with PHA training and Chain Reaction. Being that You train one body part a day, have You done these full body training styles? I'm trying to learn how You do these concepts while training one body part. How are You moving from one exercise to the next if You're training one body part? Are You doing more than one exercise for that body part? I've tried this in the past but found it hard to get endurance out of them. I can definetly see the squats with the forced breathing working endurance. Are You doing the forced breathing on all Your exercises?

[mr potatohead]

I didn't know what a "forced breathing squat" is, but I found this from Squat University and seems to be some kind of breath holding/releasing technique (valsalva).
The article does make a small mention that doing what they describe is for healthy athletes, I think it's full of shit when applied to most people who just like to exercise.

No way am I going to intentionally hold my breath or breathe in someone's idea of the "best" breathing prescription during any exercise except for underwater diving.

[Michael]

Actually from the stuff, I read Peary Rader called it the " Puff and Pant" method. I'm no expert but I found if I'm squatting with my KBs(weight) I have to hold my breath through the motion. If I don't I'd tweak my back. I would say it's a safety belt for Your back but what do I know. If I use any kind of weight for squatting I can't do it unless I do it this way. Even when I do a trap bar deadlift I don't breathe out until I get to the top. Here's a couple of Peary Rader's Puff and Pant method copy and paste:

"Rader recommended a specific breathing method to maximize the squat's effectiveness. He called it the "puff and pant" method: Hold your breath during each rep, and then pause between reps, with the barbell still on your back, and take a deep breath.

Make sure you breathe through the mouth, as deeply as possible, so you use the entire chest cavity. Don't breathe into the lower chest or diaphragm. That's not where you want expansion. Focus on the upper chest.

On the first five reps, take one deep breath between each rep. After that, go up to three breaths or more, as needed. By the time you get to rep 15, you'll probably be taking eight to 10 breaths."

"Rader believed that by taking 2 – 3 deep breaths in between reps, trainers could exert more force and hence handle heavier weights. Try it for yourself. Take a weight you can bench press for 12 reps and on an additional 10 more lbs. Take two deep breaths before pushing the weight out for each rep. Aside from lifting heavier weights you’ll notice the primitive feeling of power associated with this form of lifting.

For the 20 rep squats, Rader advised lifters to take a weight they could squat consecutively 10 times in a row. Once you’ve completed ten reps, continue with another ten. You’ll notice the importance of breathing with this exercise! Also note that more than 2 breaths is fine on 20 rep squats but you want don’t want to ‘rest’ too much between reps. If you’re performing any additional sets on the Squats pick a weight you can squat 8-10 times and perform 10 reps."

[mr potatohead]

For me, if I need to hold my breath, the weight is too fucking heavy and I shouldn't be lifting it.

[Michael]

I'm no expert, just know my back and body. Do what You want. I only care about what improves my work performance no matter what anyone says. That's why I asked Fred Hutch.

[mr potatohead]

Got Hernia?

[Michael]

Never had one but Thanks for wishing it on me, much appreciated. I squat with either two 20 kg kettlebells or 50 lb DBs(that's all the weight I have), not very heavy. I've been lifting heavy stuff for years.

[mr potatohead]

Jan 26, 2020 17:38:41 GMT Michael said:

Never had one but Thanks for wishing it on me, much appreciated. .....

I don't wish a hernia on anyone. WTF?

[fredhutch]

Michael--

The program I'm doing now, one bodypart per day, is not optimal, it's just what I'm doing right now--I was badly injured at work last year and it has limited me somewhat. But even when working one bodypart I use minimal rest, largely by alternating isolation and compound movements. So for example, when working the upper back, I will do a set of wide grip pulllups and then go right to an overhead pulldown with a cable set, then back for another set of pullups and so on. This, I think, results in a kind of continual pre-exhaust and post-exhaust method for the target muscle group. The only "rest" I ever get is moving from one spot to another to change equipment. Again, this is good but not optimal, I would prefer to do three or four bodyparts in PHA style, for example, but my injury prohibits this for now.

I use the enforced breathing with many exercises, but not all--I mean you could but there wouldn't be much point in doing enforced breathing with bent over flies. I have used enforced breathing with deadlifts, pullups, pushups, and overhead presses, I like all of them, but I think the squat gives the most benefit for the effort. A real treat for the whole body is breathing overhead squats...and you won't need much weight. For all of these I use the same pattern used in the squat, the breaths are taken in the top position and then I go down and up before exhaling. So for the overhead press, I hold the weight locked out at the top of the press, inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale, inhale and HOLD, lower bar and raise bar, exhale, repeat. Yes indeed it's much harder to do it this way than taking the breaths at the bottom, but I think it's the way to go.

Years ago on Dave W's now-defunct forum, someone told me about a course he had bought in the late 70's or early 80's called "Muscle Breathing" that used enforced breathing for all the exercises...unfortunately I have never been able to find a copy of this course and believe me I've looked.

Granted breath holding is not everyone's cup of tea...that's fine by me, like John Wayne says in Hondo, "I made me a rule a long time ago--I let people do what they want." What with yoga and chi kung as well as this kind of stuff, I feel like I've spent half my life holding my breath, and as far as I can tell it's never done me anything but good.

[Michael]

Thanks Fred! I get it now, good stuff.

[stuke]

My general method of breathing is to take a deep breath in, then keep tight, slowly breathing out with the effort. Using a squat as an example, I will not start breathing out until I have started pushing back up.
I am pretty sure I had a very minor stroke (still enough to mess me up for a couple of hours and scare the shit out of me) while leg pressing and not breathing properly, and I have also had two hernias - so I know full well how important breathing properly is now.
I think as long as you brace everything and let air out as you push, you will be ok.

[stuke]

I have done 20 rep squats before, I think at around 70kg I did a set of 20 with 100kg, I also did 50 reps with 60kg. It is not just the legs that bother you, it is everthing, I was seeing stars, shoulders and wrists hurting, pins and needles in my hands (during the 50 rep set). I think for legs, a set of 6 to 10 is better for sgrength and size for me, but for overall stress on the body, the 20 reps (or more) are king.
I imagine farmers walks have the same effect and I wonder if Hise shrugs might be worth doing to get even more of the benefit.

[chanduthemagician]

Jan 26, 2020 0:23:05 GMT Deuce Gunner said:

Jan 25, 2020 17:50:07 GMT machinehead said:

 My thought was, this is like telling someone they need to take some "medicine" in that it creates questions along the lines of "what am I trying to fix?"... in other words, there needs to be some kind of goal in mind, otherwise how am I to know if I'm doing the right thing and how do I measure progress? So, with this in mind, for myself, I'm rationalizing my progress by saying if I can do the same amount of work today as I did yesterday, I'm making progress because I'm a day older today then I was yesterday and as I age, strength and performance decreases 

For many over 35, most over 40, and everyone over 50, maintenance and progress are virtually the same thing.

I'll say it's harder over 50 for sure.  I have gained some strength back in the last year and am as good as I ever was in a couple.   I think I could take them a bit higher.   But, I'm one who tends to push too hard.  I have macro routines meaning about 3 - 5 weeks of a certain protocol, but I'd probably do better if I was better at varying the intensity within each protocol.  As it is switching protocols is almost to refresh / reboot my body and mind as much as anything.  

Jan 26, 2020 15:12:37 GMT mr potatohead said:

I didn't know what a "forced breathing squat" is, but I found this from Squat University and seems to be some kind of breath holding/releasing technique (valsalva).
The article does make a small mention that doing what they describe is for healthy athletes, I think it's full of shit when applied to most people who just like to exercise.

No way am I going to intentionally hold my breath or breathe in someone's idea of the "best" breathing prescription during any exercise except for underwater diving.

I'm a good breath holder.  For 25 years my lifting was all about how much.   Held my breath all the time.   Hell my wife notices me locking up and holding my breath moving anything over about 50 lbs around the house, it is so natural for me.   I'm forcing myself to breath.   

I do think it's safer for me to hold my breath than someone that's my age and lifting heavy for the first time.  My vascular system has adapted to that style of breathing, theirs has not.   I think I'm less likely to stroke out than they are all other things being equal.    If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to raise one hand to let you know

[metromhn]

I think the post-workout or stretching is equally important. I've had back issues for years and this has helped me a ton. metrohealthandfitness.com/2020/01/29/got-low-back-pain/