Timed Static Contractions Versus Traditional Isometrics

[chanduthemagician]

Jan 12, 2020 14:40:38 GMT Michael said:

Yeah pretty well said Jonrock. Not putting down the methods, if You like it and it works for You great. A lot of gurus talk as their modality is the best and everything else is not good. Guys like Jack Lalanne made a living using weight, calisthenics, running, and swimming. Would You question if he was wrong? I don't believe any one thing is the magic elixir for every single person. For me, the magic elixir is common sense. If You like it, it's not a drag, and it works for what You want, Then do it.

Chandu or anyone else, Can You help me understand the part of the video I watched? I watched from 18 minutes until about 30 minutes. That's all I had time for. I'm not sure if I understood it right. Did McGuff pretty much say You don't have to get Your heart rate up to improve Your cardiovascular health? 

Yes, he is talking about the amount of blood the heart moves per unit of time.   In essence the pressure of the veinous return due to strenuous muscular exercise is increasing the blood movin through the hear per unit of time.   Your hear rate increases but not as much as in steady state.  The heart can be moving just as much or more with a slower heart rate than a faster one.   

If you read or listen to McGuff's info or Ken Hutchins, they don't believe in any steady state aerobics unless it's a sport you competing in.   Need to run, run and so on.   They believe exercising the muscles in the super slow or TSC fashion creates metabolic work that stresses the heart optimally and so on.   It's really a whole different view.  So much of what is out there now with exercise is all about mechanical work.   

Well why mechanical work, works, is that it creates metabolic stress.   McGuff, Baye, Hutchins et are saying why do all the mechanical work when we can actually target the muscles more effectively with super slow or TSC than the normal repetitive stuff that needs to be repeated a bunch of times to achieve similar metabolic stress.   They are after efficiency.  Why do all this superfluous movement when you don't have to, except if that superfluous movement is your sport.

Now if you want a high total in PL or WL, you are going to need to do those lifts, just like you'd do them in a contest.  McGuff, Baye and Hutchins will be the first to tell you that.   By their definition though, that is sport, not exercise.   They only term exercise those protocols that efficiently drive metabolic demands in muscle.   

You would do well to listen to all the McGuff videos you can find.  Baye is Ok , but a lot of what he says is kind of parroting the training part of what McGuff says.   McGuff and Hutchins get into what is going on in your body and why things are more or less effective.   

Hutchins and McGuff are doing serious work with patients and clients, they are not trying to make flashy youtube channels saying listen to me, work out like me and look like me.   Believing that is akin to believing swimming will give you a long lean look.  No, the great swimmers look like that, because that is the body type that excells at the sport.   Your 5'6 fireplug ain't going to be in the next lane to Micheal Phelps.  Watch this from about 45:30 in.   Talks about that you don't need to rush from exercise to exercise as some hit folk advocate.  Talks about how the body deals with pyruvate.   Interesting.  To me at least.  

[Michael]

Jan 12, 2020 15:53:15 GMT jonrock said:

Michael, for me endurance with isometrics comes from going from exercise to exercise with as little rest as possible.

Short holds in a circuit manner:
- mid press, top press, bent over row, rest 20 seconds and repeat
- hip and thigh lift/back lift, neck flexion, neck extension, rest 20 seconds and repeat
These are just examples, I do these kind of circuits for 10 to 14 seconds per exercise, near max tension and repeat them various times. Sometimes 2 circuits in the same workout, other times 1 circuit many times.

Other times I do short holds in 20 different exercises and repeat some of the exercises, do them unilateral or something.

When finished I am perspiring and feel great.
If the heart rate does not go up, I dont think endurance is trained properly. But it shouldn't go up until your heart explodes, it doesnt feel good. At least for me.

Thanks Jonrock! I do find all this very interesting and consider Your experience similar to mine. I have messed around with isometrics in the past. Probably no where near the detail You and others have. My biggest challenge with Isometrics and Superslow stuff is after about 2-3 weeks my body starts having aching pains. Then it becomes a drag. I've pushed past this and have gone 3 months or more but the pain just stays the whole time. Everytime I got back to exercise with movement the pain goes away almost instantly. I have slowed down exercises but not superslow. I really like that You guys can get so much out of isometrics. I agree with this,"But it shouldn't go up until your heart explodes, it doesnt feel good."  

[Michael]

Jan 12, 2020 18:30:38 GMT chanduthemagician said:

Jan 12, 2020 14:40:38 GMT Michael said:

Yes, he is talking about the amount of blood the heart moves per unit of time.   In essence the pressure of the veinous return due to strenuous muscular exercise is increasing the blood movin through the hear per unit of time.   Your hear rate increases but not as much as in steady state.  The heart can be moving just as much or more with a slower heart rate than a faster one.   

If you read or listen to McGuff's info or Ken Hutchins, they don't believe in any steady state aerobics unless it's a sport you competing in.   Need to run, run and so on.   They believe exercising the muscles in the super slow or TSC fashion creates metabolic work that stresses the heart optimally and so on.   It's really a whole different view.  So much of what is out there now with exercise is all about mechanical work.   

Well why mechanical work, works, is that it creates metabolic stress.   McGuff, Baye, Hutchins et are saying why do all the mechanical work when we can actually target the muscles more effectively with super slow or TSC than the normal repetitive stuff that needs to be repeated a bunch of times to achieve similar metabolic stress.   They are after efficiency.  Why do all this superfluous movement when you don't have to, except if that superfluous movement is your sport.

Now if you want a high total in PL or WL, you are going to need to do those lifts, just like you'd do them in a contest.  McGuff, Baye and Hutchins will be the first to tell you that.   By their definition though, that is sport, not exercise.   They only term exercise those protocols that efficiently drive metabolic demands in muscle.   

You would do well to listen to all the McGuff videos you can find.  Baye is Ok , but a lot of what he says is kind of parroting the training part of what McGuff says.   McGuff and Hutchins get into what is going on in your body and why things are more or less effective.   

Hutchins and McGuff are doing serious work with patients and clients, they are not trying to make flashy youtube channels saying listen to me, work out like me and look like me.   Believing that is akin to believing swimming will give you a long lean look.  No, the great swimmers look like that, because that is the body type that excells at the sport.   Your 5'6 fireplug ain't going to be in the next lane to Micheal Phelps.  Watch this from about 45:30 in.   Talks about that you don't need to rush from exercise to exercise as some hit folk advocate.  Talks about how the body deals with pyruvate.   Interesting.  To me at least.  

Thanks Chandu! I'll probably Have to read more into this to understand it a little better. I'm going to listen to this video more after I watch playoff football today. I'm not in any sports anymore but my jobs can get my heart rate up in an instant. My main concern is to protect my heart and hopefully be ready for the instant heart rate surge I get everyday. I have done different exercise protocols in the past. I did self resistance, isometrics and calisthenics for a long time. I lost a lot of strength for working with weight. 

By the way, I know You said You switch protocols after a while. Do You mind sharing what Your training sessions look like? Much appreciated, I like to learn and see how I can change things in my own training. Also, can You tell me Your thoughts on why You think KBs are bad? I use KBs injunction with other things. I could be wrong but I think it's more what people do with them than the tool itself.

[jonrock]

With all due respect, some guys sound like they don't like training at all and look into all the so-called scientific stuff to find ways to make it more "efficient". That is very good for people who exercise because they have to (rehab, etc) and not necessarily like it or for begginers who need instruction to start. And, there is no way to predict capacity and results because each one of us is different and also change, no matter how you disguise it with science.

BUT the most successful and interesting people in strength sports and strongmen of the golden era have never trained in a cookie-cutter manner. They have gotten their hands dirty and have carved their own path, like:
-Jamie Lewis (chaos and pain guy), who broke records in RAW powerlifting training completely intuitively
-Alexander Zass
-Maxick
-Hackenschmidt
-Saxon
-John Grimek
-David Rigert
-Dennis Rogers
-Slim the hammerman
-Etc...

It is just like sex, at first you listen to more experienced guys but then you have to make it yourself.

I, like many others, do it because I need it like I need the air, because it lights my fire, because it allows me to unleash the beast in a controlled environment, because I love tinkering with training ideas and experimenting.

I respect other views, but don't make it sound like it is better the mass-cookie-cutter-iknowscienceyoudonot-blablabla over the do-your-own-thing, because the most interesting people in every area (from the arts to engineering) show it is not.

[mr potatohead]

Gr8 post, JR!

[Michael]

I like training and find it fun. I do what I like no matter what anyone says but I like to learn/see how I can improve on what I'm doing. I'm definitely the worst with science. I like to listen to other's experiences to see if I can get an idea or two. I'm definitely not going to do something that hurts or is a drag. What's the fun in that? I pretty much agree with You Jonrock.

[chanduthemagician]

Kettlebells are not bad. As you say it's what you do with them. I don't like any ballistic movements with a quick start, quick stop or postions where the body/joints need to absorb shock. In my opinion, you will pay the price sooner or later on those. Likely the older folks still doing these movements that are not injured fall into one of two camps. 1. They haven't been doing the movements that long. 2. Their joints can withstand more than many other folks. Just as some folks seem to get injured all the time, some never do.

Full disclosure, I have in my life done power cleans, depth jumps and other things in my younger elastic years. I didn't get injured but I didn't get any stronger than if I had done other lifts.

I change my program around every 3 to 5 weeks except for isometrics. I either feel mental boredom or physical burnout so I switch. I am coming off a period of working the three powerlifts and OH press with about 5 reps and forcing myself to take 3+ minutes of rest between sets. I think the next venture will be a few weeks of TSC. This is going to be new to me.

I generally rotate three styles of training
1. Isometrics - Mostly overcoming (usually 2 weeks. 3 non consecutive days per week) Sometimes I'll go three weeks, but I do these all out and it eats into your nervous system fairly quickly. I won't be physically tired, but I just won't feel like training - motivation to workout gets low. That's when I know it's time to take a few days completely off and come back with a different type of training.
2, Power lifting training - I just call it that but it's multiple sets (3 t0 5) of 3 to 5 reps. I do DL, Squat, OH press, Pull ups or Pull downs or Row and some sort of chest exercise. (Usually 4 days per week. 2 or 3 lifts each day)
3. HIT one set to failure usually super slow Legs, back, shoulders chest, arms (workouts 4 to 5 days between) I will use mostly machines for HIT

[chanduthemagician]

Jan 12, 2020 23:32:48 GMT jonrock said:

With all due respect, some guys sound like they don't like training at all 

I love training.  Been doing it since age 14.  Strength was the only "sport" I was ever good at and I wasn't great by any means.  I competed in PL in the 1990's in a regional strength assoc that doesn't even exist anymore.  To be competitive in any larger org, I would have had to take steroids, but even that would not have been enough because my leverages are not built for powerlifting.  Not many 6'1 world class benchers with a 36 inch sleeve.  Then there is the fact that I consider steroids unethical so I waved good bye to formal competition and just competed against myself.   

I was a biology major so the science side appeals to me.  The other factor is most of us probably train in the way(s) that we find are the most enjoyable for us or we are the best at. 

I'm in my 50's now and in experiment mode, but also being very mindful of my joints specifically shoulders as I've had a few injuries over the years and have some arthritis.   

[chanduthemagician]

Jan 12, 2020 23:32:48 GMT jonrock said:

BUT the most successful and interesting people in strength sports and strongmen of the golden era have never trained in a cookie-cutter manner. They have gotten their hands dirty and have carved their own path, like:
-Jamie Lewis (chaos and pain guy), who broke records in RAW powerlifting training completely intuitively
-Alexander Zass
-Maxick
-Hackenschmidt
-Saxon
-John Grimek
-David Rigert
-Dennis Rogers
-Slim the hammerman
-Etc...

Btw, where are the modern versions of these.  These days most PL, and Strongmen are for the most part cookie cutter drug pigs just lifting heavy barbells and odd objects.  None are interesting in their training like some you mentioned, many of which did it long before "better lifting through chemistry" came along.   

Modern guys I can think of that are not cookie cutter would be Steve Justa and Bud Jeffries. 

[jonrock]

Chandu, the "some guys sound like they don't like training at all" was directed to the "gurus" and the likes, not to anyone here. When you say you do overcoming isos, how do you do them?

Regarding the modern interesting people in the strength world: Jamie Lewis, Ross Enamait, Steve Justa, Charles Bronson, Eric Bugenhagen, various russian strongmen I have seen in youtube showing their workouts and shows (Zass-like).
Not many, as you point, almost no one.
But the past is there for us to learn.

As for the steroid use, yes, I agree.
But even with all of it most can't touch many feats of yesteryear. The tendon-strength ideas of Zass and others must be true, as steroids can not help with said strength. In fact, improving the muscles at such a fast rate often leads to tendon and ligament injuries.

I always remember Maxick, who at 147 lb:
-lifted 340 lb overhead, crude bars and plates
-overhead lifted a heavier guy while holding a beer with the other hand and not spilling it, 10-11 times
Also: Zass, Apollon (J C Tolson), Apollo (Paul Anderson), etc...
Not many guys repeating those things today, roids and everything.

I don't have a problem with roids except people and organizations lying and selling a fantasy.

[mr potatohead]

7:30 minutes of playing with 35# sandbags, then some stretching moves:



The above is from July 2017, after Pete Wagner stopped adding to his, now gone, " 61 Custom Rebuild " youtube channel where he had posted about 600 videos of exercise sessions with commentary. I especially like his older videos and the ones that he's now removed which were the 61 Custom Rebuild vids. He's not trying to teach specific movements or forms. He's trying to teach people how to recognize when exercise feels like it does when it's effective and to do whatever brings that feeling, so he also does not endorse doing sets, reps or tracking time.

Pete understands the tissue strengthening effectiveness of stretching.
Here's a stretching vid using a DIY suspension setup:



... and hanging:



If you're interested in what Pete has to say, I recommend a mix of viewing the oldest and newest vids.
I wish he had left his old channel up. It was interesting to watch him develop his thinking and what he did during those earlier years of the 61 Custom Rebuild channel.

[pierinifitness]

Pete is an interesting guy to say the least.  I've viewed some of his recent videos in the last year and each time I try to view the entire video, I find myself saying how I need to be on acid to totally understand what he's conveying.  He writes well.

[Deleted]

my go to fitness channel on YouTube is this geeza ....

[Michael]

Baz I like this article on his page: livingleanandmean.com/

[Deleted]

Nice one for linking that article Michael I just read it even though I've read it before ! I've took a lot of tips from him and put them into action and got cracking results ! I've always been into high volume but lately I've been doing just 2 sets to all out failure on all moves and steadily increasing the reps over time and the results are crazy .